General Motors R&D Chief Larry Burns Sees 'Electric Drive' across Product Line

Larry Burns, a finalist for Design News' 2008 Engineer of the Year, is vice president of R&D and StrategicPlanning at General Motors (GM). Perhaps no one is more in the hot seat thanBurns given GM's push to develop - and more challenging, profit from - vehiclesthat run on renewable energy. His mission is nothing short of the "reinvention"of the automobile.

DN Editor-in-Chief John Dodge sent Burns a series of questions via email for hisprofile, which will appear in the Sept. 22 print issue of Design News and a couple weeks before at designnews.com. His responses are remarkablycandid, offering a forthright appraisal of where GM wants to go. He stronglysuggests GM will warrant the Volt's battery to 150,000 miles or 10 years andoffers timelines for many newer technologies to take root. He also seeselectric propulsion across GM's entire product line.

DN: The Chevy Volt is on schedule to be "complete" by 2010.What does that mean? With 650 engineers and designers on the project, would itbe fair to characterize the Volt as GM's Manhattan Project? Compare thedevelopment time of the Volt versus traditional timelines for new models. Isn'tthe Volt the biggest project in GM history?

Burns: By complete, we mean selling Chevrolet Volt to realcustomers in 2010. Volt is obviously very high-profile because of the response ithas received from our customers and stakeholders, but we also have otherimportant initiatives that, like Volt, are focused on reducing petroleumdependence through energy efficiency and diversity. These include our hybridvehicle programs, our focus on biofuels like E85 and other electrically drivenvehicles including fuel cell-electrics. We also have important projects inother areas focused on vehicle-to-vehicle communications and autonomous drivingtechnologies, which we demonstrated with our "Boss"vehicle at the DARPAUrban Challenge. Beyond technology, we have key initiatives like growth inemerging markets.

Ourdevelopment time for Volt is very aggressive, but what makes it even more aggressiveis developing the battery in parallel with the car. Traditionally, we wouldhave done the battery work first, then initiated the product program. We'vechosen to do it this way to be first to market and because we believe we can pullit off.

DN: Much has been written about the 375-lblithium-ion battery as the Volt's critical component. Has a final versionbeen chosen yet? We know GM was testing versions based on a nano-phosphatecathode and manganesespinel chemistry. What have you learned since the battery was moved to the MilfordProving Grounds in January? Is the battery on track?

Burns: No, the final version hasn't beenchosen. We continue to work on the battery with our two developmentpartnerships, one involving LG Chem and Compact Power and the other involvingA123 Systems and Continental.

Wehave confirmed the capability of our selected cell chemistry in terms ofsafety, range, recharge time, power density and energy density. We also have aclear understanding of how we integrate the cell in the modules and the modulesin complete battery packs. We also know how to optimally integrate the packsinto the vehicle in terms of packaging, safety and vehicle performance.

Overall,the battery development is on track. But one of the important challengesremaining is proving ten-year, 150,000-mile life when we're developing thebattery over a three-year timeframe. Obviously, we'll protect the customer inthis regard with our warranty, but we still need to prove out the requireddurability.

DN: What are the manufacturing issues around the Volt? How are they differentfrom vehicles with internal combustion engines (ICE)?

Burns: The key manufacturing issue for the Voltis the battery. The battery packs will each have 200-300 cells, which need towork all the time, so the manufacturing process needs to deliver extremely highquality from a statistical perspective. Beyond that, we believe we have prettydeep knowledge of how to manufacture the car from our experience building the EV1,our hybrid vehicles and our ChevroletEquinox Fuel Cell demonstration fleet.

DN: Can the Volt's technology be leveraged across largervehicles such as SUVs and full-size light trucks? Do you envision thishappening?

Burns: One of the reasons we're focused onfuel cell and plug-in electric technology is to be able to offer electric driveacross our entire product line - from commuter vehicles to family-size vehicles.Our Equinox Fuel Cell development vehicle is a crossover SUV. And the conceptbehind it, the ChevroletSequel, is also an SUV. These vehicles demonstrate the promise of fuel cell-electricpropulsion in this class size, but we will need to see improvements in batteryenergy density beyond what we have today to envision plug-in vehicles significantlylarger than Volt.

DN: When do you think FCVs will be produced for sale? Isthat program going fast enough in your view? What comes first - the refuelinginfrastructure or the FCVs? What manufacturing issues still stand in the way ofmaking FCVs? How important are hybrids relative to the Volt and FCVs?

Burns: We will likely see a true commercialfuel cell vehicle market, at relatively low volume, in the 2012-2014 timeframe.While GM and other OEMs have made dramatic progress on fuel cell vehicles over thelast 10 years, the vehicle alone won't allow us to realize the full benefits ofthis technology. We also need the infrastructure to move faster. As I stated ina speech in April before the NationalHydrogen Association, we have now reached a point where theenergy industry and governments must pick up their pace so we can continue toadvance in a timely manner.

Thereare no manufacturing ‘show stoppers.' The most important challenge, beyonddeveloping the infrastructure, is to realize manufacturing and market cycles oflearning for first-, second- and third-generation vehicles. This will be key toreducing cost and realizing the mature, high-volume potential of fuel cellvehicles. We're getting prepared for our first commercial cycle of learningwith Project Driveway.This is the largest-ever fuel cell market test and it is putting 100 Equinox Fuel Cell vehiclesinto the hands of mainstream customers to see how the technology works in thereal world. The next step is to transition from market test to first commercialgeneration, which will take the number of vehicles from the hundreds to thethousands.

Theindustry is transitioning from the old automotive DNA of stand-alone vehiclesthat are powered by internal combustion engines, energized by petroleum andlargely controlled mechanically. We're moving to a new DNA that encompasseselectrically driven vehicles energized by electricity or hydrogen, controlledelectronically and ‘connected' to other vehicles and the infrastructure.

As wework toward this new DNA, hybrids have an important role to play. Not only do theyoffer additional efficiencies beyond what is available with advanced gasolineand diesel engine technologies, but they also give us engineering,manufacturing and market experience with electric motors, power electronics andadvanced batteries - which are all critically important components in ourfuture electrically driven vehicles.

DN: Long term, do you see one renewable fuel or batterytechnology winning out over the other? Also long term, what's your prognosisfor the internal combustion engine? Can you forecast a crossover point for ICEand emerging technologies such as those in the Volt and Chevy Equinox FCV?

Burns: Long term, we see energy diversitywinning out. As a full-line manufacturer marketing products around the world, wesee a combination of propulsion technologies in play - biofuels to allow continueduse of internal combustion engine (ICE) vehicles, hybrids to make ICE vehicles moreefficient and, ultimately, electrically driven vehicles, both battery- and fuelcell-electrics.

Sincethere are about 900 million automobiles in the world today and the industry is buildingabout 70 million new units each year, the ICE is going to be around for awhile.Even in the longer term, some segments will continue to be best served bygasoline and diesel engines so GM is working very hard to develop technologiesthat will enable the ICE to reach its upper-bound limits for efficiency andcleanliness. But the real key to addressing the energy challenge is to reduce theautomobile's current 96-percent dependence on petroleum through energy diversitymade possible by alternative forms of propulsion.

Focusingon the market crossover point, or the ‘tipping point,' is the right way to thinkabout these new technologies rather than trying to forecast the market penetrationof different technologies 40 years out. At GM,we define the tipping point as the point at which markets can sustain thegrowth of a new technology from both an energy cost and a vehicle costperspective. We believe the tipping point for biofuels based on non-foodsources of biomass is 3-5 years away. For Volt and fuel cell vehicles, if youfactor in three commercial cycles of learning 3-5 years long each, you end upwith the tipping point occurring in 10-15 years. Some may say this is a longtime, but when you consider a tipping point implies people are willing to buy atechnology because it is what they truly aspire to own and it provides the bestvalue for its price, it's still a very compelling opportunity.

DN: With your background in public policy, should thegovernment be doing more to promote alternative propulsion technologies likefuel cells and the Volt technology? What could or should they be doing?

Burns: Government is an equal partner withthe auto industry and the energy industry in realizing the transformation toadvanced propulsion vehicles. Government needs to proactively supportdevelopment of advanced technology and play an important role in fundingdemonstration programs early on, when the technology is not fully matured but weneed to gain real market learnings.

We'realso going to need government help in the way of incentives. It should provideappropriate consumer incentives and be a major early customer by purchasinglarge numbers of vehicles for government fleets. Government also needs to takeappropriate actions to ensure the energy infrastructure develops in concertwith the vehicle technology and the necessary codes, standards and permittingrequirements are in place to bring the technology to market.

DN: You've been outspoken in getting Big Oil to speed uptheir development of a hydrogen production and fueling infrastructure. How doyou convince them? It seems like Shelland Chevron ofcompanies their size are the only two oil giants actively working on a hydrogeninfrastructure (of course, the industrial gases are, too). What has to happento make FCVs a reality from an infrastructure perspective?

Burns: The best way to realize a hydrogeninfrastructure is to have the auto and energy industries and governmentsaligned with a proactive and collective will to accelerate progress. The autoand energy industries need to see this as a business growth opportunity andgovernments need to see it as a way to address energy security andenvironmental goals. One of the reasons we've been working closely with Shell is itsview of the hydrogen economy is similar to ours in the sense that we both see itas a huge business growth opportunity.

Additionally,the auto and energy industries need to come to a common understanding of energypathways from a ‘well-to-wheels' perspective. And energy companies need to understandwe have customers who are very excited by the potential of electrically drivenvehicles.

DN: I heard you speak at MIT a few years ago where youdescribed a 6- or 12-inch-thick chassis with all mechanicals built and anelectric motor on each wheel. How close are we to that?

Burns: Our Sequelconcept, which was the first fuel cell vehicle to drive 300 miles withoutrefueling, is the embodiment of this concept. Sequel's 11-inch chassis incorporatesall of its propulsion and chassis system components including the fuel cellsystem, hydrogen storage tanks, wheel motors and by-wire steering and braking. Thisvehicle confirms the emergence of the new automotive DNA, and its promise to besustainable and better in all aspects than the internal combustion engine,petroleum and mechanical control genetics that have characterized automobilesfor the past century.

DN: What is the hardest thing about your job? What is thebest thing?

Burns: The best thing is being able to workwith people who have deep knowledge on a wide range of technologies. It's alsovery exciting to be in a position to influence transformational change in automobilesand their energy sources with the goal of making the world a better place, whileextending the ‘freedom' benefits of the automobile to more people.

Thehardest thing is bringing about this transformation in an industry that has hadthe same automotive DNA for 100 years. It can be very difficult to get all thepeople who have an interest in solving the problems of the automobile alignedon solutions - not just within the company but also other stakeholders outsideGM. Achieving a critical mass around a solution and maintaining constancy ofpurpose can be huge challenges. But, to paraphrase Winston Churchill, never,never, never, never give up!

DN: Please add anything you like about the future ofautomotive technology.

Burns: I think the future of the automobileis extraordinarily exciting. The industry has tremendous growth potential sinceonly about 13 percent of the people in the world today are vehicle owners. Whereverwe go, we find people aspiring to the freedom that comes from owning anautomobile, and I am confident the technology exists to enable sustainablegrowth. To be where I am in the auto industry when all of this is happening isreally energizing.