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@FireFlyBlu

PLEASE! That Gizmodo article is a piece of junk.

We will see how freakishly easy it is to steal the phone PIN. No, not a simple one.

Read this, the original paper: http://arxiv.org/pdf/1403.4829v1.pdf

Iron

Thanks Charles great infromation.

Iron

Sorry this is not currently our subject, can somebody explain what the technical terms "C+, C-, C- -" mean? 

Iron

Thank you Charles and Jennifer for this lecture.

Charles' question was: How secure is secure enough?

It depends on the situation.

Charles' question was: Anyone facing security over BTLE?

I don't work with BTLE.

Charles' question was: What other security threats do you see?

Authorization control,faking the DNS server.

Thanks Charles and all, see you tomorrow.

Iron

Charles' question was: What are other security issues in today's Internet?

Viruses, worms and programs automatically sneaking into your system. We can mention the person who develops software, he/she can be an issue, too.

 

Freescale and 'free' MQX RTOS. Will look that over when given a chance. again thanks.

Iron

Thanks for attending and the great discussion!

 

Off to the "real" job. See y'all tomorrow!!!

Iron

Good topic Thanks for the presentation Mr Lord.

Iron

The Freescale license I mentioned yesterday is for the IPv6 support in their otherwise 'free' MQX RTOS.

Iron

Missed something you must be talking about Freescales Lic. Did not get time to overview that item

Iron
@cjlord Right%u2014exactly. And with most [non-malevolent] disclosure practices against high-value targets, one could argue that the balance is slanted in favor a bit more. Plus, you can often purchase commercial-licensed versions that provide contractual guarantees (and remedies), as well as priority "quick fix" services should an exploit become known (should your organization desire). (F/OSS is really just a license model!)
Iron

@FireFlyBlu. They are more advanced than what the best out there

Iron

@cjlord. the solution in partition. it can't all be done at the end 

 

elaborate this point a step please

Iron

@cjlord. the solution in partition. it can't all be done at the end 

Iron

Think the Gov should for the most part stay out of it, they move slower than wheathering rock, They make a mess of most things. The private industry almost always excels,  Thats the power of fee thinking people. Our freedom to think and innovate

Iron

Thanks Charles and Jennifer

Iron

Crowdsourcing other than for $ does have advantages

Iron

How much money is made out of antiviruses?

Shouldn't be the Gov agencies paying the bill for security concerns.

Iron

Without the crime, there would be no crime fight (and no job)!

 

There would always be another bright light to deal with. The jobs would be there

Iron

You all are the BEST for discussions!!!

Iron

Very true @jamal - that is why the end points are vulnerable.  When you are trying to squeeze years of life off of a coin cell, you can't be running AES128 all the time.

Iron

RE: Security

Without the crime, there would be no crime fight (and no job)!

Iron

@FireFlyBlu - you raise a good point. Systems that must be highly resistant to non-security-related hardware or software failures often use triple-redundant systems or more, constantly checking the results for consensus before they take any potentially unsafe action. There's no reason why that couldn't apply to security as well. It would be much more difficult for a hacker to plant malware on multiple routers executing the same function across redundant systems simultaneously.

Iron

And I agree that the best way to avoid the vulnerability of the Internet is to parallel it.  That is the DOD solution in some cases (and NSA etc)

Iron

The challenge for wireless devices is in processing requirement involved and battery consumption.

Iron

All rf communications can be captured and stored for later analysis. NSA does it and so do hackers, hackers are no longer kids toying around, they are now nation states, well funded crime goups, etc. That is the main topic. IOT and IIOT devices need to be sorted and prioritized. The higher the level ,they are then assigned to use a different secure communications path.

Iron

Thanks jonf - that is the right website! Also linked from ieee802.org

Iron

78RPM - you made a great point of the HUMINT issue.  We can put the greatest security in the system and one human can wreck it all.

Iron

End to end design gives you the most control but often you need to interface to an existing system where you don't have the control and flexibility.  In such environments you can only protect your design so much and the customer has to take on some or most of the security responsibility.

Iron

Open source is always a two-edged sword. BUT at least you know what you have, and open source's vulnerabilities usualy appear with the number of people using it.

Iron

IOT are one thing IIOT is the most inportant if infrastructure, medical, industrial automation, avionics, etc are all on the ww web, even with IPV6. Still vote for a parallel secure system, its the only way to stop a majority of the intrusions. As digital advances we really need to look into the future, instead of just profits that are quarterly. Big complex subject, probaly has a very basic solution. 

Iron

How secure is secure enough?
512-bit RSA key generation with DES encryption should be enough

Anyone facing security over BTLE ?
Not working on BTLE

What other security threats do you see?
Hacking and Tampering

What are other security issues in today's Internet?
authentification and confidentiality

Iron

@Don Pancoe - good one. After developing embedded "security" firmware for a medical device, my problem now is that I can't get general business or professional liability insurance. The terms that apparently trigger rejection are "embedded firmware", "security software" and "medical"... sigh.

Iron

standards link: http://standards.ieee.org/about/get/

Iron

Thank you Charles. Very informative.

??Charles - reminder: you were going to post 802.xx standards links.

Iron

How secure is secure enough? It is a metter of defining what has to be protected. If an un protected system can be taken over and it connecting to a protected system can cause the entire secured system to be disrupted then all levels must be secured. It still is amatter of how secure is secure.

Only begun experimenting with BTLE; yet to face security.
Iron

@ttaebel - interesting idea!

Iron

So true Don!!! (look out your shoe's untied)

Iron

Thanks Charles, a lot to think about.

Better to be aware of these weakness and possible breaches.

Good lecture!

Iron

Thanks Charles, Jennifer et al.

Iron

A really challenging lecture

Iron

From a self-serving consultant's point of view, make sure your part is not the weakest link in the chain. I don't need to outrun the bear, I only need to outrun you. ;-)

Iron

Thanks Charles, Jenifer, DN, Digi-key, Et. Tal.

Iron

Thanks, very informative. Have you thought about doing another presentation where we look at the details of a specific application. For example the remote control of a home furnace?

Iron

Source code will need to be verified - another security "oppportunity".

Iron

Thanks again Charles.  Very informative presentation

Iron

Very interesting.  I thought ipv6 was going to solve security issues... 
Thank you for the info.

Iron

As I said yesterday; this is way over my head. It is however, encouraging to see that someone is looking at all these issues from the input side to protect us dummies.

Great session. Thanks, Charles, Jennifer.

Signing out now.

 

Iron

In our industry we have helped define and write safety standards used everywhere.  Data security is critical due to life safety concerns and our position as a potential target of hackers.  Any vulnerability revealed through exhaustive hazard analysis must be addressed in hardware, software, or operational and maintenance procedures

Iron

Charles' question was: How secure is secure enough?

This depends on the application.  Applications such as power grid, automobilie, medical, etc. but for isolated system that sends weather data from remote location is less of an issue.  The system needs to be unlinked to other systems so it can not be used to gain access to more sensitive systems.

Iron

How secure is secure enough? You have to weigh the possible threats in terms of both likelyhood and level of damage that they can cause. At some point you draw a line above which threats will be mitigated and below which they will not. Truely 100% secuirty is probably not practically attainable.

Iron

Thanks Charles and Jennifer.

Iron

Thanks Charles, Jennifer, DigiKey & IEEE !

Iron

Thanks all - another cup of coffee and I will be right back to answer questions!

Iron

thanks for the presentation.

Iron

Thank you Charles, Design News and Digi-Key

Gold

Thanks,  Good talk about security.

Silver

Very good lecture, Thank you very much Charles and Jennifer

Thank you Charles and Jennifer

Great presentation again.  Thank you Charles, Jennifer.

Iron

Data? Music? Driverless cars?  Think it would depend on the risk of the 'hack'.
and not just the initial threat, but what other systems can be
comprised with data from the initial threat...

Iron

zero tolerance for intrusion.

Iron

Thanks Charles, very interesting lecture

Iron

Thanks Charles & Jennifer

Security includes auditing to check for authorized users exceeding their "need to know"

Iron

Secure enough depends upon motivation by attackers and consequences of breach.

Gold

Charles, Jennifer.....thank you very much!

Iron

Thanks Charles. This was the most IMP and useful presentation I heard so far !!!!

Thank you Charles and Jennifer.

Iron
How secure is good enough? I was always taught that security is best practice from a paranoid perspective. So, encrypted, for sure, but beyond that, he strongest that can be practically and reasonably implemented for the application.
Iron

The level of security must meet the required level of regulations of the industry, and then to the level of comfort of the company.  In general, if the data isn't absolutely needed then just don't collect and store it.

Iron

for my customers in the retail industry, their data and THEIR customer's (consumers) data MUST be secure.  Not sure where we put a "good enough" bar on that.

Iron

Long but interesting talk. Thanks.

Iron

Thanks, Charles and Jennifer.

Iron

Thanks Charles and Jennifer.

Iron

a number of factors are needed to weigh how much security is enough.

Iron

Charles,

Great presentation,

Jennifer, Charles,

Thanks,

Iron

Thank you Charles, Lot's of good security info:

Iron

Security depend of sensibility of data managed, critical nedeed more.

Iron

The public has a nack of finding flaws better than all the money spent trying to break a system. Send the public a sample sytem and give it some time and see what happens. It's the the Pharma industry good drug sell it a year later folks are dropping.

Iron

@RMRSS - how can you be sure that they source code you are using is exactly the same as the source code that your favorite white hat found to be safe? It seems you have to self-verify for the highest level of security.

Iron

Security varies with industry and applications.

Thanks Jennifer, Charles and Digi Key. Great lecture.

Iron

How secure is secure enough?  The answer depends on the consequences of a breach.

Iron

Q: How secure is secure enough?

A: Depends on the legal and customer requirements.

Iron

tend to think more is better with security

Iron

How secure is secure enough? When the projects starts creeping outside of scope and profitability

Iron

The problem is that the enough security level implemented today will be not enough tomorrow.

Iron

how to determine if the security is enough. It is never enough if more than one person knows how it works.

Iron

If the Security applied protects the system from Data breach or functional breach then its a fully Secure system;

When customers do not trust your device, it is not secure enough.

Iron

secure enough? application dependent..

Iron

It depends on your industry.

Iron

Depends on sensitiviey of data

Iron
@kchandra Well, the reality is that much open source software is actually written by people employed by companies large and small (eg IBM, Google, Apple; just to pick a few big guys), who derive revenue from writing and supporting that software, sometimes directly, other times indirectly; there are numerous profitable business models in use. It's really a misconception that much of what runs the "web 2.0+" is written by some pale-faced guys working in their parents' basements.
Iron

"Secure enough" varies dramatically with the application and/or industry.

Iron

Whenever lives are at risk, even the best security isn't good enough.  If someone really wants in, they will get in.

Iron

detection of intrusion is enough for me

Iron

Zero tolerance for intrusion.

Iron

Depends on the situation.

Iron

Charles' question was: How secure is secure enough?

I agree that the need for full source code is important, but the ability to use libraries, frameworks and so forth has really raised management expectations as to how quickly software can be developed. And even if you do have all the source code, it will take a large amount of resources to review it all. We will need to fine tune management's expectations.

Iron

 Charles:  Is open source better or worse since code is available to white hats and black hats?

Iron

No Bluetooth Long Term Evolution security issues

Iron

Some time all the complexity is easily overrun by something as simple as this: 

Gizmodo
Kate Knibbs

Gizmodo - ?Tuesday?, ?June? ?24?, ?2014
It's Freakishly Easy To Steal Phone PINs With Google Glass

You need to go to the site to find the article.

Iron

No issues with security for Bluetooth yet.

Iron

In today's Embedded.com Weekly newsletter there is link on the side bar;

"Addressing Security Concerns for Connected Devices in the Internet of Things"

This is a 57 minutes video.

 

Iron

I have not worked on BTLE

I am QA'n a BTLE device. Not Testing Security

Iron

Q: Anyone facing security over BTLE?

A: Now I'll have to think about it!

Iron

Q BT sec)?: Using BT but not concerned about SEC yet.

Iron

not working with bt or btle

I recently did a BLE project (bicycle device) - no security was specifically requested by the client.

Iron

Not using "secure" Bluetooth devices.

Iron

Extensive work with BT but not BTLE

Iron

How do companies implement IOT security?

 

Iron

Not working with it currently

Silver

No work stilll with BTLE

 

Iron

Anyone facing security over BTLE ?
not working with BTLE

Iron

using a SAM encryption chip

Iron

Working with Bluetooth in vehicles and there are substantial questions and fears of software security.

Iron

BTLE - no security issues for current project

Iron

not working with bluetooth

Iron

Not working w/ BTLE at this time.

Iron

I'm only starting to work with BLE so I've not thought about security in depth, but I'm certainly aware that I will have to do that soon.

Iron

not working with either

 

Silver

not working with BTLE security

Gold

I will be working on BLE enabled product soon. Haven't looked into the Security issues yet

Not currently working with Bluetooth

Iron

I am not working with it at this time.

Iron

Security is becoming an issue

Iron

Not working with BTLE at the moment. These security issues are of concern.

Iron

Just starting BLE, so haven't run into security issues......yet!

Iron

Not myself but others within R&D are.

Iron

Not working with BTLE yet...but will be soon.

Iron

Not working with BT or BT LE

Iron

Charles' question was: Anyone facing security over BTLE?

Alot of security issues go back to the code, the updates. That is not all inclusive issues are no being found that the silicon itself is "unsecure" and has faults, thats a new frontier

Iron

Educate, train, supervise, monitor the people involved in security.  Turnover presents a big problem.

Iron

Developers' legacy and prop issues

Iron

We see the security threats from China, North Korea, Russia, and some terrorist groups.

Iron

A lot of computers are not secure as they don't have latest version of JAVA.

Iron

What's boundary between hardware security and software security?

 

Iron

Charles' question was: What other security threats do you see?

As before backdoors and software breaches but also issues with software fixes and updates.  to fix issues (including security issues)

Iron

Not involved with security

Iron

You need access to the chip though

Iron

Chips by some Mfgs have DNA markers that ID the chips, that helps, but thier is a way to etch the chip to look right at the die itself.

Iron

there is security threat introduced by having people that are not properly trained in the loop

Iron

Any kind of middle man attack.

Iron

Risk from someone getting physical access to a device to hack, steal code, tamper, disable, etc.

Iron

One of the largest risks of IIoT is in the level trust given to employees and the human implications to maintining security.


Also, having a good method of identification, passwords are often just written on postits on the equipment.

Iron

For ecommerce, Loss of Service is the big one

Iron
@dzeez It is a diffucult situation, evil elemnts could be anywhere. How many people have knowledge and time to look at the source code and see if it has been infected with some undesirable code? Do we trust one established company, or we trust millions of programmers (including some evil elemnts)?
Iron

node access/host data

Iron

Firmware update mechanisms and debugging ports need to be secured against hacking on IOT devices

Q: What other security threats do you see.

A: Counterfeit devices that allow access.  

Iron

security threats maybe theft of service.

Iron

Other levels of security. Guard against walknet as an attack vector -- the ability of someone carrying in malware via USB drive or vendor access

Gold

Secure against operator/repair person shortcuts and "fixes".

Iron

There should be some kind of restriction against printing out or copying information.  Recently some information was leaked out by a disgruntled employee printing out record and taking them.

Iron

Your information shows me there is a lot to think about that goes on to make the system secure.

Iron

Faking the DNS server

 

Silver

you seem to be more plugged into the issue than me.  Seems you have mentioned anything I could think of.

Iron

Gov should use thier own Fab plant and designers

Iron

Installation of a Rougue Device within the SECURE LAN of Industrial Networks.

Authorization control

Iron

Charles' question was: What other security threats do you see?

"Defense in depth" is another important concept. Essentially assume that some part of your network will be compromised, and design the network to limit the extend of which that compromise can affect other parts of that network.

Iron

@kchandra Why do you expect fully auditable code that *you* (and many others) have access to to be riskier than the closed source black box model? The history speaks rather against that situation, emphatically.

Both have "holes"  needs to be done on silicon by a reliable and trusted source. Not silicon from China, they add back doors needs to be done here in the USA.

Iron
@kchandra Why do you expect fully auditable code that *you* (and many others) have access to to be riskier than the closed source black box model? The history speaks rather against that situation, emphatically.
Iron

Slide 12 mentions "horizontal evolution".  I am unfamiliar with that phrase. What does it mean?

Iron

In open source software, it will be extremely difficult to keep an eye on evil elements in software development community.

Iron

Physical layer security like X and AE are good enough that they often lock out your own employees and devices. Not a reason to not use them, but plan for the added administration.

Iron

@SChancey

you protect yourself from developers by knowing what they are doing 

Iron

source for 802.11 standards: http://standards.ieee.org/about/get/

Iron

Even this site does not use HTTPS for login so anyone can intercept all our logins

Iron

If you can remotely access information, so can a hacker.

Iron

encrypt the encryption and rotate the encrytion generation on a small time scale every 1k packets or time 1 sec.... just like HDCP except faster and rotating keys

Iron

How do you protect yourself from developers?  They don't "tell all".

Iron

@pshackett, yeah, right

Gold

did you find out if you are relatives? :-)

Iron
Oh, also: NSA (et al)-planted backdoors & other exploits
Iron

wireshark-  try backtrack open source. Be informed Fed laws toying with a network without written permission

Iron

Last year I went to the optometrist. A week later I got a hand written letter from the husband of one of his employees. He was suggesting ways of researching my family genealogy as he had relatives of the same name.  I sent the letter to their personnel director and mentioned HIPAA.  I got a certified letter back telling me the employee had been fired and that they will be running another session of HIPPA compliance.

Gold

it's all in the code. code needs to be evaluated by the best b4 integrated into a program. MS and others have been at it for quite awhile, they can't even get it right.

Iron

@Zwilrich : thanks for your comment ; agreed, but on a broader view, it is still "throwing away"  valid IPv6 adrs ; according to hype, soooo many devices will be built and just like the 640kB memory limit was supposed to be 'enough / eternal', somewhere down the road (in a "few" years), I'm sure we will get to that limit...   ;-)  And it would be so eazy(ier) to introduce a solution 'now', before things start rolling out too fast...  But agreed, humans are humans (and will put off doing things unless hitting a wall...)

Iron

Note that HIPPA doe snot protect your data from the U.S. government.

Iron

Where is the security when some of the agencies force the companies to discloses all the data?

Iron
Security issues in today's internet: 1) incompetence/uninformed practitioners
Iron

Pull the plug, it always works but does not protect against inside abuse

Iron

There is also "supply-chain management" or something similar. Making sure your Cisco router, for example, was actually built by Cisco and not intercepted and fitted with a back door at any point in the supply chain.

Iron

keeping very large networks secure while maintaining accessibilty to the masses.

Iron

internet security issues, open source software without strick safegaurds on security.

Iron

Security issues are creeping automotive applications to where doors could be unlocked and vehicles started by a hacker.

Iron

Security need many levels to enter, many levels of cross checking at each or the auth levels, and higher use of biometrics w the same cks as above. Any mistakes and you get locked out until admin can ck what the auth path was and how valid it was being processed

Iron

Software which enables access w/o good auth.

Iron

This season of "24" has been good.

Iron

Also embedded back doors in routers/switches/devices that are put in from ????

Iron

What is the greatest risk when combining cloud access and local mesh wired nodes through a gateway?

Iron

Keeping government agencies from spying on your data.

Iron

On ebig issue with internet security is keeping dedicated systems secure while moving data across a public network.

Iron

Ransomware is the name I couldn't think of.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ransomware

Iron

If you are a fan of "24", it would be the takeover of wireless devices by the bad guys

Iron

Charles' question was: What are other security issues in today's Internet?

 

backdoors and other vunerabilities in software apps and even OS.

 

Iron

Preventing unathorized access.  Via ethernet as well as Bluetooth.

Iron

Charles presented various security issues coming from a network. Also of concern is a malicious someone getting physical access to a device to hack, stal code, learn, repurpose, etc.

Iron

Encription Ransom malware/viruses.  Very nasty, encripting data and requesting a ransom to unlock.  so far it is not being addressed at all by any enforcement agency- NSA, FBI, etc.

Iron

Q: What other security issues in today's internet?

A: Black box software applications with backdoors.

Iron

Your list is good. Specifically, intellectual property can be stolen by subcontractors who build your circuit boards.

Gold

I am not sure what th edifferenc ebetween avirus and malware, isn't a virus automatically activated where malware need the user rto enable it?

Iron

Forget the name, but there is a new class of malware that "locks" your machine and users are to send money to have the hacker "unlock" it.

Iron

Using obsolete software (OS)

Iron

As I said before "THE SAME ENGINNERS THAT DEVELOP SECURITY ARE AN ISSUE".

Iron

Viruses and Worms and programs automatically sneaking into your system and copy the data directly from the hard drive.

who controls and keeping control

Iron

Hello from Atlanta

 

Iron

physical access to the hardware

Iron

Can't think of anything else right now.

Iron

very thorough list

Iron

signing in a bit late.

 

Iron

Your list is pretty inclusive from my experiences.

 

Iron

Good afternoonfrom rainy Ankeny, IA

Charles' question was: What are other security issues in today's Internet?

How secure is the internet today? As the same engineers that work in developing security "DON'T TURN INTO HACKERS THEMSELVES"

Iron

A virus is specific, malware is general; both bad for technology!

Iron

Virus duplicates until something fails.  Malware takes control of things.

Iron

@prateeksingh - the class will be archived immediately following the lecture. You can listen at any time.

 

Target was hacked through an HVAC service provider? no separation of building automation and POS.

Iron

Bad administration. No one reads the instructions

Iron

I have heard him cut out momentarily a couple of times

Iron

can we download these audios for future offline references ???

 

The sound for me is clear

Iron

Use redundacy or hand off to secondary route

Iron

Hello from Sunny SE Lake Simcoe Ontario Canada. Really! Sunny today!

Iron

What's the difference between a Virus & Malware ?

audio is clear and steady

Iron

No Audio -- worked yesterday

Morning from Brisbane.

Iron

JimT @askFPI.com - Ft. Lauderdale, FL  92° and Sunny.

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Hello from Ham Lake, MN

Iron

@cpu, yes. Please regarding audio stuff

Gold

hello all from Timisoara

Iron

Ready to rock in Verona, WI.

Iron

hello from Long Island

Iron

Checking in from McMurray, PA

Iron

@78RPM, I have your email address in my notes somewhere. Want me to email you?

Iron

Hi from NJ!  USA!  FIFA!

Iron

Santa Cruz here...

Iron

Hello from Montréal, Québec

Iron

A nice day in Cincinnati

Iron

Ready to go in L.A.

Iron

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Iron

@cpu, do you still have my email address?

Gold

Hello from Lawrence, MA

Iron

Hello from the Midwest

Iron

Good Day all, from PA, USA, where the blue sky is reappearing.

Iron

Also, if you haven't already, don't forget to fill out the Course Evaluation Form.

Hello from Albuquerque.

Iron

Good Evenning from Valladolid, Spain, UE

 

Iron

Class starts in just under 10 minutes. If you haven't yet, please download the Powerpoint -- it's right up there under "Special Educational Materials." Thanks.

@jmelotte - Charles included his email on the last slide of each PPT so that you can contact him directly if needed.

hello from Mishawaka

Iron

HI from Swartz Creek Michigan

Iron

please read beloq

in the chat this is for me NOT possible.

the chat is impooisble to follow remotedly, seen the high rate of the qustiond displayed.

 

Iron

hello from near  Brussels, in Belgium

Iron

can i pose some questions after the talk to the lecturer ? in the chat this is for me possible. the chat is impooisble to follow remotedly, seen the high rate of the qustiond displayed.

Iron

hello all from Edmonton, Alberta.

Iron

Hello from NY northern tier.

Iron

Hello from San Jose, CA

Iron

Hello from Delavan, WI.

Iron

Hi from Upstate New York

Greetings from NJ.

Iron

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Hello from Hudson's Hope BC

Iron

Hi from Pittsburgh PA

Iron

Hello from Pittsburg

Iron

Hello from Bennington, VT

 

Hello from Long Island, NY

Iron

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Hello from Guadalajara!

Aloha from Montana

Gold

greetings from Detroit, Michigan

Hello from Chicago

Iron

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In yesterday's chat, people were wondering about reusing IPv6 addressess for devices that had been destroyed.  The short answer is that there is no need to; the address space for IPv6 is HUGE.  Throwing away a billion addresses (10^9) out of 10^38 is so small it isn't even a rounding error.  Even a trillion (10^12) doesn't show up.

Here's another way to look at it.  From yesterday's slide 5, there are 3*10^38 addresses.  There are approximately 6*10^23 grains of sand on the earth.  This means that you could give each grain of sand 5*10^14 IPv6 addresses, or 500 trillion addresses per grain.  Even if you use the first two octets of the IPv6 address for categorizing (multicast, link-local, etc), that still leaves 7 million addresses per grain of sand. 

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