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Limited first, then Global

Hello from Gold River.

Iron

Just got time go over lecture of today. Thank.

Iron

me, too. Over and out.

Gold

Must leave...thank you Charles et al...

Iron

@dzeez: Excellent take on PROBLEM DEFINITION, thereby defining the issue through your example. Brilliant, acutally...

Iron

@danlafleur, Wolves will think that there has to be an easier target than to risk injury in a fight. Maybe a rabbit will do me tonight, he might think.

Gold

I like the low tech sheep mgmt approaches; maybe we're overthinking this whole "Internet of Things" (though somehow things seem to have got on to it being an internet of aplacas or somesuch)

Iron

I prefer Moose Drool Beer

Gold

@78RPM, sometimes the simple solution isn't as "exciting". My great pyranees is certainly up to the task of chasing away a wolf or two, makes enough racket that they will want to be somewhere else. Looks ferrocious too when she want to be. A great friend, protector and part of our family.

Iron

@78RPM only when you get between them and their Moosehead Beer

Iron

re PROBLEM DEFINITION -- whole post -- VERY MUCH AGREED! Many industries/verticals/etc have come to recognize the importance of approaching problem solving in a deliberate, methodological way -- I'm not saying methodoligical in the sense of 6sigma-level overhead, either; it can be as simple as combing the steps @elauesen enumerated (but following them deliberately and discretely). So, to give googleable terms for more info, I would try "design thinking" along with "systems-level" approaches (eg systems-level biology vs... anatomy) -- Essentiallly, I've gotten to the point where I try to approach...anything at all, really, from that type of perspective. I think it's very worthwhile for anyone doing anything, IMHO. (And please, if that long paragraph made no sense whatsoever to you, let me know, and I will clarify.)

Iron

@elauesen, Are they ferrocious?

Gold

@78RPM They have Alpacas in Edmonton--sorry for nitpicking ;))

Iron

@danlafleur, You are so right! And I have been telling people around here that that is the solution.  Another solution is to get llamas - they are ferrocious defenders of sheep and their hair is valuable. But it seems like a lot of guys around here just want an excuse to shoot wolves. I want to reduce the need for blood-thirsty measures. You are spot on with sheep dogs.

Gold

i've seen a few posting about sheep management. what about low tech, get a dog. my dog is quite willing to tell the sheep to stop jumping around and if there is a predator threat, you will certainly hear her bark it away:-)

Iron

@WildDave You're absolutely right, but the IoT is forcing us to deal with 'frameworks' rather than a single standard. So if I stuff my size 12 foot into a glass slipper I can't go far (so to speak), so your point about 'flexibility' is critical. We have a lot of Cisco and IBM-trained technicians out there in the Universe who have to look beyond networking layers to solve packet loss in a jerry-rigged mesh

Iron

hello from Edmonton, Alberta. better late than never.

Iron

Gotta run. Good discussion. I hope to talk to you guys again.

Iron

@cjlord Thanks for that document link! Looks like a wealth of useful information. (And reminder to look into IEEE involvement....)

Iron

@elauesen  Good point. But almost always the best design is to not limit the solution to a single problem but rather to design the solution so it allows for the most flexibility. That allows you to adapt the solution later for varied conditions that are unanticipated in the initial problem definition.

Iron

I just wanted to say that the most critical issue in any of this is PROBLEM DEFINITION. Often we jump into problems incrementally instead of doing ROOT ANALYSIS needed for a project. It would be a great lab to do some 'problem definition' exercises with the students. Create a 'simulation' and ask the students to come up with a clear 'project definition'. This is especially hard for engineers who are trained to solve problems one layer at a time. The IoT challenges us to look holistically at a problem before we commit to a solution.

Iron

@npitech, Gee, I hope I'm not monopolizing or abusing my time here. But what I want to measure is panic which would be told by a Vote of Accelerometers, not relying on one or two.  Upon detection of panic, the central system could do anything -- turn on a spotlight, alert the shepherd in his bedroom, turn on a siren.

Gold

correction:

   a mesh does give you an advantage

I meant this to say:  a mesh does not give you an advantage

Iron

@78RPM Sounds good. Thanks for the tip.

Iron

http://standards.ieee.org/getieee802/download/802.15.4-2011.pdf

 

Iron

Thanks Charles and Lauren.

Iron

@WildDave, If you go to Amazon's website, they offer you a chance to "look inside" this book.  They are very generous in how much of the book they let you read (30-40%).

Gold

I think you need to think about sheep behavior. They tend to stay in groups and move together. I don't see a real advantage to having a mesh. If they were all over (like cows) there might be a benefit. In low power system, if two sheep were far from the group,  a mesh does give you an advantage over a star. What are you tracking, their rate of change of travel, their location or a headcount? When faced with a predator they normally bunch. If they are moving over a large area how do you have a router? Will one or more animals carry a larger package?

Iron

GTS is part of the IEEE 802.15.4 standard

Iron

?? Charles, is "guaranteed time slots" an official part of the lingo or are you just using a figure of speech?

Gold

@78RPM  Sounds good. I'll check into that book. There is a legacy network protocol from IBM that they used in the dark ages called Token Ring that I've thought about borrowing some concepts from. It might be adaptable to mesh.

Iron

There is also the possibility to run 15.4 at 900 Mhz - better for terrain and trees (if applicable)

 

Iron

Yes, the ZigBee protocol is a good mesh - make all nodes full-function devices and they are all routers.  Again, with the sheep I would make it a star if possible. You can do guaranteed time slots also.

Iron

oh right, Charles mentions complexity of [self-healing, etc] mesh networks...forgot about that practical concern :)

Iron

@WildDave, I think you are correct in that every node can act as a router. I picked up an easy-to-understand book "Wireless Sensor Networks by Robert Faludi. It's removing many of my questions and is helping me set up some test networks.

Gold

I do find the sheep question interesting; wish I could offer something specifically useful, but...it would be kind of a holy grail of protocols (and every other aspect) working well in this type of "could be anything" situation, totally applicable to a multitude of other non-sheep contexts

Iron

?? Charles, Ooooh. So with 15.4 using collision avoidance, I don't have to use multiplexers -- which is what I was thinking.  Now I just need to use a central node to tell all nodes to sleep for one second (using interrupts) and then wake up for a few milliseconds.  This to save power.

Gold

@RWeber, each of those techs has their own advantages and disadvantages. Wifi is already TCP/IP and has range and bandwidth but is a power hog. Zigbee has cost of certification but has the best mesh network, enOcean has its niche, and zwave the lowest cost.  There is no clear winner overall.

Iron

78RPM. I've been thinking about the same type of stuff. Self-healing mesh where every node can act as a router.

Iron

@78RPM, I would look at a single star. Using 15.4 you get collision avoidance and some of the features you are looking for.  You can go mesh but it does get complicated and you want to keep cost down.

Iron

?? Charles and @miket. I want to talk about sheep again. Sheep move around and if I try to establish a mesh network or subnetworks, my nodes are all over the place. Help me think through a topology that might work to implement miket's idea of "summaries." Would this be multiple Star topologies? Would it be a mesh with some subnodes that have to look for a router node?

Gold

?? There appear to be four main competing wireless protocols: WiFi/IP, Zigbee, enOcean and ZWave. Which do you feel has the greatest stickness in the IoT and why? Are there any application areas where one excels over another?

 

Iron

Missed most of this one - will have to go back and read the slides...

Thanks Charles, Lauren, Design News and Digi-Key

Iron

@miket, would you stay on for a moment? I want to ask Charles a question and you could weigh in.

Gold

Challenge: Large scale mesh communications integrated with swarm logic.

Iron

@cghaba agreed -- and do you include what was previously called "M2M"? did that evolve into IoT? or... or are we just getting into a categorization exercise which will turn into a giant waste of time? :)

Iron

Thanks for listening - I am grabbing a cup of coffee and will be on to answer questions in one minute!

Iron

An interesting additional source of information is the newly launched IoT World website (www.iotworld.com).

Iron

Thanks will have to listen to first half in the archives but what I did hear was appreciated.  Thanks Charles and Lauren.

Iron

Biggest challenge: keeping cost/node in line with benefits

Iron

Sorry, I don't really have a current IoT design; just studying for now.

Iron

Interfacing a Sony videoconferencing unit

Iron

@elauesen Are you certain that most reimbursement related activities even need to be obfuscated? Because that's definitely not the way it's done now under HIPAA ...why do you think you'll be compelled to do that? (I suppose it's really -- HIPAA -- more about end-to-end security between "trusted" parties, with teh insurance company being one such party...)

Iron

Thanks Charles and Lauren

Thank you everyone!  Have a very great day!!  :)

Thank you, Charles and Lauren!

I would like to share with twitter but I don't use twitter *_*;

Iron

The greatest challange is to find a hat so big to cover all existing and emerging technolgies involved today in IoT

Iron

Standrd and protocol to use

Iron

Thank you Lauren and Charles

Greatest challenge:  interfacing (semi non-intrusive) with other manufacturers devices.

Thank you Charles and Lauren.

Iron

Thank you Charles, Lauren, Design News and Digi-Key

Iron

Biggest challenge - management & resources (Time, money....people)

Iron

My biggest challenge or question is distance. As you mentioned, 2.4GHz is absorbed by biological material.

Gold

Biggest Challenge:  Security

Iron

Great presentation!

 

Iron

As a software engineer, one of the challenge with different standards is there are also different communication protocols. So need to design different API for different IoT devices.

Iron

Greatest challenge: accounting for lack of reliability of connectivity

Iron

Deciding what communication protocol to use and what level of security to attach to it.

Iron

infrastructure for customer support

Iron

The question was: What is your current greatest challenge in IoT design?

Platinum

was going to ask about 6lowpan; any thoughts about, experience using? anyone worked with at all yet?

Iron

Yes, LTE - Long Term Evolution.

Iron

Not interested in medical

Iron

I'm not working on any medical applications.  We worked to NISTIR 7628 and NIST SP 800

Iron

Yes, re nice pre-certified radio modules!

Iron

re security via other layers like physical layer... of course, that's good when appplication-feasible. I suppose I tend to approach things from a very "paranoid" perspective, because unless you're working within a topology with a very very tight closed private network (eg not wifi, btle...) -- there nevertheless remains the data transport layer to whatever data warehousing system you're using... which, often can be on the public Internet. Then, I suppose with secure physical layer, you just have to concern yourself with your sensor network (etc) base station/gateway's pushing data for storage etc.

Iron

The question was: Those of you doing medical applications, are you currently using 11073 or proprietary protocols?

Platinum

Precieved projects are global, reverse engineering and trade secrets are prime concern.

 

Iron

Security concern at the crux of doctor-patient confidentiality reconciled with accountability for billing is this: how to monitor examination and services provided by doctor while maintaining privacy and confidentiality. I have concieved of a time and motion concept that would link critical movement and equipment utilization triggers to a primary codex in an RPMS

Iron

That is great, I will check it out.

Iron

There is an IEEE Journal on IoT that will be launched at the end of 2014 (http://iot-journal.weebly.com/)

Iron

gwp2,

 An engineer playing is one thing but playing at being an engineer sounds dangerous!

 

Iron

For me, from my background, proper design entails using crypto for every instance you're transmitting or receiving data or control. Luckily, modern hardware is capable and inexpensive; it's no extra effort potentially (some more traffic overhead). (Though somewhat ironically, some of the 8-bit platforms I'm working with at the moment are [so far] coming up short there.)

Iron

That china shattering illustration is funny, Charles.

Gold

Track the incineration of waste in international transport of livestock.

Iron

By the way, you shouldn't keep tomatos in the refridgerator--it ruins their flavor.

Iron

I think there will need to be several different levels of security. Individual medical and financial data will always have a high security need. It seems to me that some individual messages may be partially secured simply by being anonymous.

Not really concerned with security -- mostly interested in the physical layer and SG11

Iron

Security is the proprietary process.

Iron

Security not a big concern, possibly hackers causing improper operation. 

 

Iron

Don't think I have any security issues.

Iron

Security related to personal data privacy

Iron

No security issues

 

Iron

Maximum security. Post RSA stuff.

Iron

Data to protect:  PII and/or home occupancy data

Iron

personal documents for legal transactions.

Iron

security is not an issue with my data

Iron

Need to protect power plant instrumentation data

 

Iron

No financial or personal information, primarily hack proof for reliability of operation.

Iron

The question was: What security issues are you facing? Are they from financial, trade secret, or regulatory areas?

Platinum

Reverse engineering is #1 issue

 

Iron

Sorry gentlemen I'm late today been playing hydraulic and mechanical engineer.

Iron

Limited universe, home security application.

Iron

Limited scale for now, maybe automobile OBD.

Iron

Concept -- subnets within buildings - gateways for each building to a private network for routing limited portions of data.  Could use real Internet instead of private network . . . .

Iron

The project I am looking at would cover several acres (out doors).

Iron

small office, warehouse, limited universe

Iron

My IoT universe would be limited to a building.

Iron

I'd say it encompasses both global and limited scope.

Iron

Limited universe to be expanded to a global one

Iron

It is definitely in a global scale.

Iron

Limit scale, within a work group

Iron

Lauren, each day i have clicked on the play button of the audio as soon as it nas become available and each day it starts with you in mid-sentence. Perhaps you could wait a few seconds after sending out thelink before starting your intro.

Iron

Universal (even Jupiterians)

Iron

The question was: In your current or anticipated IoT projects, what is your conceived "universe?" Global or limited — and to what limits?

Platinum

Hello from Tucson, AZ

Iron

Good evening from HB, GR

Iron

Good afternoon, everyone

Iron

Hello from sunny Toronto, Ontario!!

Iron

Hi all -Audio is live! If you don't see the audio bar at the top of the screen, please refresh your browser. It may take a couple tries. When you see the audio bar, hit the play button. If you experience audio interruptions and are using IE, try using FF or Chrome as your browser. Many people experience issues with IE. Also, make sure your flash player is updated with the current version. Some companies block live audio streams, so if that is the case for your company, the class will be archived on this page immediately following the class and you can listen then. People don't experience any issues with the audio for the archived version.

Good morning fm PHX

Iron

Good for you garysxt!

 

Iron

Back from lunch / walk just in time.

I had 3 meetings conflicting  with this week's series. They were all cancelled! Yoo hoo!

Iron

Greetings from Boston metro West. A nice and calm Fall day 61 deg F.

Iron

Greetings from Chicago.

Iron

Good afternoon from Mobile, AL

Good afternoon from rainy West Point, PA.

Iron

Thanks miket. good consideration. I'm thinking that only a fraction of the sheep would have to have collars (1 in 5? 1 in 10?).  But your idea of summaries is a good one.

Gold

Hello from Hudson's Hope BC.CAN.

Iron

@78RPM -- I comment you need proprietary ... hundreds of devices trying to communicate at once using COTS standards means almost none will be successfully received until stretched out in time (due to collisions and preamble requirements)  using short range communications among the collars and a single collar to send "summaries" of the groups == better

Iron

Hmmm - I would look at the size of the pasture land. If the range is not too great, I would use the 802.15.4 protocol but not put ZigBee on top (not really needed). Plus, there are extra-rangle RF modules for that protocol (assuming 2.4Ghz). Look at Panasonic and other modules in DigiKey's catalog

Iron

@cjlord regarding sleep:  Now that's a truth if ever I heard one!

Iron

?? @Charles, What if I want to put accellerometer sensor collars on a flock of sheep that would talk to a central MCU or computer. The MCU would decide whether sudden activity is just a playful sheep or a panic that is spreading throughout the flock -- a predator alert. What wireless protocol would I use? Zigbee?, Wifi?

Gold

Hello from Chihuahua, Mexico

Iron

Hello from windy Albuquerque.

Iron

Hello ... "ain't nobody got time for that !"

Iron

Hello from Sunny Phoenix

Hello from the mountains of Montana

Gold

We got the slides. Thank you

Iron

Good evening from Iasi

Iron

Today's slides are now posted. Click 'Today's Slide Deck' under Special Educational Materials above right to download the PowerPoint. If you do not see the slides please refresh your browser.

Platinum

Sleep? We are engineers - as they say, "ain't nobody got time for that!!"

Iron

Slides are sent to Design News - will be up shortly

Iron

Is the slide will be uploaded and available later? I dont see it yet.

Iron

Greetings from Summerville, South Carolina. How is everyone doing. How are you Charles and Lauren? I hope you both well. I am looking forward for another great lecture.

Iron

Good morning from Scottsdale, AZ

Iron

Be sure to follow @designnews and @DigiKeyCEC on Twitter for the latest class information. We encourage you to tweet about today's class using the hashtag #CEC.

Platinum

@TomBee  Doesn't seem like it lately!  But I am an early bird (that way I get home early too!  :)

Iron

Please join our Digi-Key Continuing Education Center LinkedIn Group at http://linkd.in/yoNGeY

Platinum

The streaming audio player will appear on this web page when the show starts at 2 PM Eastern time today. Note however that some companies block live audio streams. If when the show starts you don't hear any audio, try refreshing your browser. If that doesn't work, try using Firefox or Google Chrome as your browser. Some users experience audio interruptions with IE. If that doesn't work, the class will be archived immediately following our live taping.

Platinum

Good Morning from Huntsville, Al

Iron

Good morning Portland. Do you sleep much - early bird!

Iron

Morning from Portland Oregon

Iron


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