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Ann R. Thryft
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Re: Promising advancement
Ann R. Thryft   8/21/2013 12:43:36 PM
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I think grid-scale alternative energy management is one of the most interesting--and to judge by some of the comments on this site, least understood--of alternative energy subjects. It's not just about storage, but about deploying what's needed where at the right time, quite a delicate balancing act. The system operators in California and Texas, where there's a lot of solar and wind power on the grid, have been doing this successfully for some time.

patb2009
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Re: Promising advancement
patb2009   8/21/2013 9:28:03 AM
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right now, to meet Grid contracts,  a wind farm bids in Megawatt hours to the grid on the spot market.  

 

According to a buddy of mine the worst thing to ever deliver is the Megawatt-59minute.

he goes, you deliver a lot of power and pay for the privelige of doing so.

so say you have 10 1 megwatt turbines and the wind is really strong and predicted strong, you will likely bid 9 MW-H to the grid, because, you want some reserves.

if the wind is weak and variable you may bid 3 or even 2 MW-H, hoping that part of your array will be catching wind.

 

so adding some decent battery say 15 minutes of drop out protection, means that

in scenario 1 you may bid 10 MW-H and in scenario 2 you may bid 5 MW-H,

that's what i mean by increasing revenue.

 

as to reducing workload, when you blow your supply contract the Grid operators

may start up a bunch of gas turbines fast to deal with a frequency problem or voltage sag or start importing power, and that's workload to the grid managers.

if wind farms become rock solid producers, they reduce work to the grid managers

Elizabeth M
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Re: Promising advancement
Elizabeth M   8/21/2013 6:37:45 AM
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Thanks for that link, Ann. It definitely provides perspective on the concerns about overall management and system maintenance that grid-scale storage requires in quite plain terms. So not only do the batteries themselves have to meet the right price point and storage capacity, along with the usual requirements of energy storage, but they also have to fit well into the overall grid structure.

Elizabeth M
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Re: Promising advancement
Elizabeth M   8/21/2013 5:57:14 AM
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Yes, Chuck, I think cost is the key. We'll see how these storage efforts pan out--hopefully one of them can hit the affordability sweet spot.

Elizabeth M
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Re: Promising advancement
Elizabeth M   8/21/2013 5:47:08 AM
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Thanks for your comment, patb2009. Yes, they are definitely viable; what I meant was that storage will allow them to play a larger role in grid operations than they currently do. I'm not sure what you mean by "increasing revenue and reducing workload"? Can you clarify that point?

patb2009
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Gold
Re: Promising advancement
patb2009   8/21/2013 4:53:51 AM
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"As renewable energy sources like wind and solar become more widely used, the next step is to find a way to make them a viable part of the electricity grid."

 

i would say PV and wind are viable to the grid because they are used on the grid,

the issue is increasing revenue and reducing workload to grid operators.

 

 

Charles Murray
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Re: Promising advancement
Charles Murray   8/20/2013 6:38:47 PM
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High energy density and cheap, easily-available materials are a great combination. For renewable energy storage to work, cost-effectiveness is going to be a must.

Ann R. Thryft
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Re: Promising advancement
Ann R. Thryft   8/20/2013 11:32:19 AM
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Here's an interesting article discussing grid-scale batteries and their management (via a specialized OS), equally important as battery design when it comes to optimizing output via load-shifting and other techniques: http://www.greentechmedia.com/articles/read/designing-grid-batteries-to-live-long-and-prosper

Elizabeth M
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Re: Promising advancement
Elizabeth M   8/20/2013 8:15:38 AM
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As another discussion point, here is information on another one of those efforts to create a viable storage battery: http://www.designnews.com/document.asp?doc_id=255495

Elizabeth M
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Promising advancement
Elizabeth M   8/20/2013 7:54:03 AM
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This is yet another promising advancement in this busy area of research. If there is viable storage then renewables, which already are becoming more widely used and really are the way forward to reduce or even eliminate independence on the traditional electricity grid, can play even a larger role in providing power to millions if not billions of people. I know of a couple of other efforts in this area--the MIT-spawned Ambri comes to mind: http://www.designnews.com/author.asp?section_id=1386&doc_id=259497--but does anyone know of any good ones as well to add to the discussion?

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