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Ratsky
User Rank
Platinum
Re: Pretty Darn Real to Me
Ratsky   8/6/2013 1:03:42 PM
NO RATINGS
All everyone here is trying to tell you is that you have a punctuation problem!  The proper term is WATT-HOUR, not WATT/HOUR.  That is the ENERGY term.  Your numbers are valid, the presentation with the incorrect terminology is wrong.

Ratsky
User Rank
Platinum
Re: Speed
Ratsky   8/6/2013 12:54:29 PM
NO RATINGS
"The Chevy Volt limits the State of Charge of its battery not to exceed 80% and not to go lower than 20%.  This significantly increases the life of the battery, expected to be many thousands of charge cycles."

I have a silly question: is the stated/advertised range of the Volt based on that 80/20 rule, or is it "theoretical" based on 100%/0%?  Not long ago, many manufacturers advertised (for ICE vehicles) "range" based on an inflated EPA highway mileage number.  This was a large part of the reason behind a change in the EPA calculation method, and the introduction of the "combined" number required to be used for range calculations.

Please do not just give me another anecdotal story about your personal experience!  I drive a 2003 V6 Camry with nearly 150K miles on it, and have on several long trips gotten better than 30MPG at an average speed in excess of 75MPH, with AC running, etc.  EPA Highway rating is 28.... but that's NOT scientific proof of anything!

 

Tool_maker
User Rank
Platinum
Re: Pretty Darn Real to Me
Tool_maker   8/6/2013 12:53:23 PM
NO RATINGS
@Contrarian: Many thanks for sharing your experiences in the real world. I am sure there will be some insulting responses before this string runs out, but you have beautifully expressed the fears of many people. Life is not so cut and dried that I can daily predict what customer I need to serve, part I need to pick-up or store where I need to stop. As I said, "You are living in the real world." Well said.

Tool_maker
User Rank
Platinum
RE: Needs
Tool_maker   8/6/2013 12:43:51 PM
NO RATINGS
Where did you get the idea that EV's are products of this century? They may be predated by Stanley Steamers, but not by much. The technology is improved, but the idea is well over 100 years old. What is new, this century, is the hype, propaganda and government subsidizing a niche vehicle to please a relative handful of people.

gfvalvo
User Rank
Iron
Re: Is range anxiety real?
gfvalvo   8/6/2013 12:39:36 PM
NO RATINGS
"With the electric car I plug it in every day when I park it in my garage, that takes about 5 seconds."

Five seconds huh? Guess it's drawing about a Giga Amp to "refuel" your 180 miles in five seconds :)

Seriously, that's a ridiculous comparison. Five seconds to plug in means you're now ready to charge for 5 hours before you can drive another 180 miles. Five minutes at the gas station means you're ready to immediately drive 300+ miles.

skk
User Rank
Iron
Re: Is range anxiety real?
skk   8/6/2013 12:20:43 PM
NO RATINGS
I have had an electric car for over 4 years now and I definitely feel range anxiety.  But only when I drive a gas car.  With the electric car I plug it in every day when I park it in my garage, that takes about 5 seconds.  The next time I go to drive it, it has 180 miles of charge, far more then I drive in a day.  When I drive a gas car I start wondering where I can find a gas station, will I be able to get there before I run out, will they be out of gas.  It usually takes 5 or 10 minutes to get to the station, wait in line for a pump, refuel and get back to the road.  If it is cold, windy or raining it is unpleasant to be out in the elements refueling.

 

Sometimes I get asked what do I do for long trips?  The answer is usually get on a plane.  On the 1-3 times a year that I go on a out of town trip a year, if I don't fly I take another car.  Exactly what I  did when I had a Porsche gas car.  There isn't room for any luggage in a roadster so if you want to take an overnight trip by car you take a different car.  Like most families we have more then one car so that isn't a problem.  My wife isn't a sports car driver, but if she was I guess then we would rent a car if we chose not to fly.

 

Of course if you got one of the new Tesla sedans you could use their battery swap stations, same or lower price then a tank of gas and faster.  Or you could get dinner at the reststop while your car is recharging for free.  Tesla will have coast to coast coverage by the end of the year.

Ratsky
User Rank
Platinum
Re: Cnanging the paradigm
Ratsky   8/6/2013 12:18:22 PM
NO RATINGS
"Question:  How effective would solar panels, built into the hood, roof and trunk lik be in extending the range of an electric vehichle?"

Answer: not at all considering my car is parked in a parking garage all day, and I often drive to/from work in the dark!  Also, the energy density of typical insolation (look it up) doesn't produce all that much useful energy with cell arrays of around a square meter, all that could be expected in most EV applications.  I'm getting really tired of all the overblown ideas about solar promulgated on an "engineering" blog!

Shadetree Engineer
User Rank
Gold
Re: Is range anxiety real?
Shadetree Engineer   8/6/2013 10:45:58 AM
NO RATINGS
I suspect that EV industry engineer was promoting the official gospel from his employers.  But to be fair, I also think that most consumers have very little concern about the range of their ICE vehicles as any typical car will get at least 300 miles on a tank. It's easy to spend your life doing lots of 150 to 200 mile intervals and never need to think about just exactly how many miles was that really!  I ride a small motorcycle with a 2.5 gallon tank, it's a 1984 XL250 bored out to 280cc's. I typically only get about 120 miles on a tank. Normally I try to refill whenever I see my trip meter log over 80 miles, and in my experience this bike really puts the fear of range anxiety into my mind any time I think of taking the bike anywhere! My first thought is always 'Oh crap, did I fill the tank before coming home?' To which I can reassure myself that at least I can take half an hour(finding a hose, getting tools ect...) to siphon enough gas out of one of my other cars to make it to the gas station and spend another 15 minutes before getting on with my day.

 

So, to sum up - range anxiety does not exist for any EV that can keep up on the highway, can get 300 miles between charges and get a 100% charge in 6 hours or a 40% charge in 1 hour. Are we there yet? - nope!

 

ps - if the global passenger car fleet is 100% EV, this will equate to a grotesque skyrocketing of energy consumption due to the extra weight being hauled around!

Bunter
User Rank
Platinum
Re: Range Anxiety-Global warming?
Bunter   8/6/2013 10:26:01 AM
Hi Trees,

First of all, thanks for the good tempered reply-all too often this issue leads to rather nasty retorts.  Appreciate the civility.

Actually I started my look into this issue approx. 8-9 years ago with, I think, a fairly objective stance.  I knew I did not know the answers.

I don't have time to cover all your thoughts but will throw in a few items.

CO2 heat absorbtion.  IIRC CO2 can primarily abosorb energy in two different band widths 14 or 15 microns (memory lapse) and another that I can't recall at all.  The second one is a band that is also absorbed by water vapor-my understanding is that water vapor already saturates the energy abosorbtion in that band-ergo there is nothing left in this bandwidth for CO2 to contribute.  In the 14 micron bandwidth CO2 is already near that saturation level, additional CO2 will not contribute any signifigant absorbtion-the capacity is already used.

Ice loss-or the antarctic ice field growth? never makes the news.  Losses on the heavily volcanic ANtarctic pennisula do but the growth elsewhere? Nope.  The news agencies definately report what fits their viewpoint.  Ocean rise has been on since the little ice age, current data suggests it is slowing.

Quite familiar with the long term temp records, hence my point on CO2 correlation.  Most presentations I have seen to correlate CO2/temp start in the 70's and go to about 2000.  It looks good over that period.  Over the whole century the correlation is low.

Extreme weather?  Check the records Hurricanes are actually low the last few decades as are strong tornados (since the widespread use of doppler radar more low power tornadoes are detected).  Droughts also seem to be in accord with historical norms.  Keep in mind that our exposure to news of various weather events has grown exponentially with information technology.  Perception is not data.

Ocean heat_ As I noted the ocean cycles are important.  In fact the correlation between the PDO and other ocean cycles and global temps is supposed to be high.  With the addition of solar considerations it seems to cover the vast majority-if not all- of what we see in the temp records.  Just a note also-the actual measured temp peaks in recent decades are very similar to those of the 1930's-we are presented publicly with "adjusted" numbers.  Have yet to see an explanation for the adjustments.

The current temperature trends are in accord with ocean/solar cycle evidence and predictions.  They are well below the expected levels of CO2 forcing estimates.

 

Could I be wrong? Certainly, but honestly having looked at a lot of evidence from both sides I sincerely think the weight is strongly indicating natural cycles with little or no human driven components.  Don't get me wrong, i don't support foolish wasteful use of reasorces or polluting.  As a Christian I feel it is important to use wisely the home God gave us.

 

OK, went way over what I intended.

 

Thanks for corresponding.  Take care.

Cheerio,

 

Dennis

Shadetree Engineer
User Rank
Gold
Re: Is range anxiety real?
Shadetree Engineer   8/6/2013 10:22:36 AM
Somebody needs to market an electric snowmobile, for sure! I'd like to see the belt drive on traditional designs elliminated & replaced with a motor controller. Unfortunately, it takes noticeably more power to drive a sled through snow than it does to go down bare pavement. I know this from firsthand experience by the way as I have a 340cc machine that I converted to summertime use with a set of DIY inline skates up front. Accelleration in the snow was never a big deal and would take a little time to get up to full speed, but on bare pavement I had to really tighten up my grip on the handlebars as I was almost always sliding backwards down the seat on full-throttle launches. 0 to 60 takes about 7 seconds on pavement.

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