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Re: EVs to save the planet?
loadster   7/24/2013 4:02:10 PM
The only true green is an electric light rail mass transit train and a segway. Beyond that, most solutions involving high density electric storage or megajoule gas tanks  produce directly or indirectly irrecoverable harmful byproducts. There is no free lunch. If you believe your Honda Insight is representative of a common conveyance for all, I'm happy for your delusional pursuit of happiness.

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Re: Not me!
akwaman   7/24/2013 8:33:33 AM
It looks like gafisher can see into the future, because oil may last a century... if we stop using it. Not even the oil companies are fooling themselves like gafisher!  They know better.  Renewable energy is the future whether some want to believe it or not.  H2 is the near future solution, that is here today.  You can either run it in your internal combustion engine if you like, or you can use it to power your electric car.  Use hydrides to store it safely and batteries are a thing of the past, because H2 solves the problem of expensive energy storage. 

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Re: Not me!
Battar   7/22/2013 9:02:19 AM

              I stongly suggest that you do a bit of research and check your figures carefully. Coal there might be plenty of, but oil and gas - sorry, finite resource, my grandchildren will probably live in a world in which it has been and gone. Take into account he increase in usage due to population expansion and industrialization of developing countries, and you will be counting oil in decades, not centurys.

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patb2009   7/18/2013 10:40:18 PM
I think the value of an EV depends upon who the buyer is. 

If you live in a big apartment building with no parking and you street park, and have no good place to charge, it's not worth much.  

if you live in extreme cold or hot weather country where the temperature will hurt the battery or the demands for A/C well it will have low value.

if you have a very long commute to get places, then it will not be good value.

If you live in a moderate climate, have a daily commute of no more then 50 Miles,

can charge at work, then the value is very high.


So the value to me is lifecycle cost, price and expected fuel budget and maintenance.

I think any price in the 20's is a good deal, if i had a daily 25-35 mile commute.

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Re: EVs to save the planet?
Sparks007   7/18/2013 10:01:33 PM
Back in March 1 2001, the IEEE Spectrum had an article "Are Hybrid Vehicles Worth It?" Gas was $1.50 a gallon and the writer thought that gas prices woild have to rise to $5.10 for hybrids to make economic sense. Texaco was one of the contributors to that article. The article was far from "fair and balanced". The industry continued to make hybrids, the subsidies disappeared and today hybrids are popular and profitable.

The recent The IEEE Spectrum article "Unclean at Any Speed - Electric cars don't solve the automobile's environmental problems" is written with the same bias. If you like FOX News, you will probably love the author's book.

The article claims that the car is unclean because electricity is made from coal. If electricity were made from another source, then the car would be clean. It's not the cars fault.

To your point.

If 75% of the public charged their cars at night, the utilities would be delighted to upgrade their infrastructure with the profits from the increased sale of their product. Many of those cars would be charged during the day at the increased number of chargers that will be installed at office parking lots etc. The utilities would gladly build more power plants to meet the demand. Those plants would be built using natural gas, since the plants are now cheaper to build and operate than coal fired units

 Those dirty electric cars would then become cleaner than ICE technology.

Full disclosure

I bought a 2000 Honda Insight new. It has 176K miles and still runs fine. It's becoming something of a collector's car so the residual value is better than I expected. I ordered a Volt when they first were introduced. I kept the Insight in case there was the usual start up bugs in the Volt. Only problem so far was a software patch to make the braking system smoother during low speed operation. The weight of the batteries makes for a smooth ride. Their low center of gravity makes cornering far better than average. On long trips I get 40 MPG. I'm happy with the car and would buy another in the future.

I'm a member of the IEEE. I like their Technical Publications, The Spectrum magazine is included with the membership fee. The articles tend to be more informative than technical. "Unclean at Any Speed" was neither.



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Re: Not me!
gafisher   7/18/2013 8:03:31 PM
Sorry, Pubudu, but those figures are from the same pseudoscientific alarmists who warned us of more than one previous "end of the world."  From their track record I'd guess that at worst their graphic could be inverted.  There's more than enough oil, coal and gas to last well over a century and perhaps more than twice that.

Of course, that doesn't mean we should be profligate in using these resources, but it does mean we ought not jump immediately to radical and faddish "solutions."  Let's get the politicians and policy wonks out of the car business and give it back to actual Engineers.

Charles Murray
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Re: Start by taking "EV" out of the equation ...
Charles Murray   7/18/2013 6:11:03 PM
I agree with your 50% conclusion, Ralphy Boy, It would be similar for me. Last year I had two kids in college and had to drive 300 miles (one way) to see one and 170 (one way) to see the other. A pure EV wouldn't work very well in those situations, For me to buy an EV for local use, it would have to be a lot less expensive than my IC-based car.

Ralphy Boy
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Re: Start by taking "EV" out of the equation ...
Ralphy Boy   7/18/2013 4:07:13 PM
Good points gafisher...

One of the problems with calculating the cost of an EV is that the numbers are so mired in incentives... and uncertainty. Isn't NYC cutting back on electricity this week?


But, my short answer to the question of the thread is; about half what I would pay for the same auto in the ICE version. For me an EV would be about half as useful as an ICE, and so as long as it was to be my second car, I'd go about 50% on the price... being the adventurous type I might even try driving it to work in the winter a time or two.

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Re: Not me!
warren@fourward.com   7/18/2013 2:20:47 PM
I don't believe these numbers.  I believe there is more oil than ever.  Only governments won't let it go to push this other nonsense.  Sorry, but I don't think we are running out of fossil fuels.  The earth is full and ready for harvest.

Not that we should not be trying to use other methods, however.  I just believe the government should get out of the energy non-business and let the marketplace develop it.  No matter what Obama, Bush, Clinton, Reid, etc. says.  What do these boneheads and their grant-adicted minions say.

Other than that I don't have any opinions...

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Re: EVs to save the planet?
Pubudu   7/18/2013 1:48:51 PM
KenL many thanks for the great link,

I also in the wrong side before I read it cause that mind is working on saving fuel.

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