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CharlesM
User Rank
Silver
Re: Bogus Comparisons
CharlesM   6/21/2013 12:40:05 PM
NO RATINGS
Electric hot water heaters run on 220VAC.  How many folks have a 220VAC outlet in their garage or in their driveway?  Almost nobody.

What does this have to do with anything? We're talking power, not voltage. Besides, it's trivially easy to add or convert 120V lines to 240V.

 

kenish
User Rank
Platinum
Re: Dire needs
kenish   6/21/2013 12:19:35 PM
NO RATINGS
In California, full-size pickups and anything larger pay a weight-based registration fee, and semis pay lots of taxes.

There are social costs of about $1 per mile that go with any vehicle.  Examples are construction and maintenence, pollution, medical costs of accidents, extra burden on first responders, etc.  I'm very anti-tax too, but all vehicles need to contribute to the "hidden" but very real costs.  Maybe toll roads are a more equitable solution?

ab3a
User Rank
Platinum
Re: Bogus Comparisons
ab3a   6/21/2013 12:15:58 PM
Hot water heaters run quite intermittently and they do represent a signficant energy cost in the home. Imagine adding two hot water heaters and they're running almost continuously. 

That will leave a mark...

Larry M
User Rank
Platinum
Re: Dire needs
Larry M   6/21/2013 12:09:21 PM
Name-calling is the refuge of those who cannot make intelligent arguments, Charles.

Write back when you've got something logical to say.

CharlesM
User Rank
Silver
Re: Dire needs
CharlesM   6/21/2013 12:00:19 PM
NO RATINGS
Here in North Carolina (home of the highest gas taxes in the nation) a bill was just introduced in the legislature (by Rep. Neal Hunt, R-Wake, I think) to tax electric cars to make up for the lost gasoline tax revenue.

I'm sure you frequently support new and higher taxes. That's nice. That kind of ignorance-based politically targeted legislation is exactly opposite what's needed to wean ourselves off our addiction to oil. Once more, incentives are needed to artificially lower the costs of more efficient transportation than fossil fuel burners until the economies of scale can implement cost reductions through market means. It's a chicken-egg problem that requires kick-starting for a few years, which is a key function that only government can provide.

As for lost revenue, I'll bet you argue for lower revenue every other chance you get. As for road use, less than 1% of cars sold are EVs and it's probably MUCH less than that in your state. I would wager that large trucks do by far most of the road damage and vehicles under 5,000 lbs., including all EVs, cause something closer to 1% or less of all road wear.  The argument to add new taxes for EVs is misguided at best and stupid at worst. It's counterproductive either way.

Constitution_man
User Rank
Gold
Re: Bogus Comparisons
Constitution_man   6/21/2013 11:57:43 AM
NO RATINGS
Electric hot water heaters run on 220VAC.  How many folks have a 220VAC outlet in their garage or in their driveway?  Almost nobody.

kenish
User Rank
Platinum
Re: Dire needs
kenish   6/21/2013 11:45:13 AM
Same in CA; our state legislature is circulating various bills to switch from a gas tax to a "mileage" tax.  Wear and tear on infrastructure as well as congestion are agnostic to whether it's an EV or a F350 dualie.   Falling gas tax revenue isn't solely due to EV's of course...better MPG, telecommuting, the economy, and the under 25 demographic not wanting a car also contribute to it.  Point is, the calculation changes if mileage taxes come to pass.  BTW, our gas tax rivals yours at 39 cents/gallon.  

If you look at the photo in this article or see a Leaf on the road, the banner down the side says "Zero Emission" .  Seriously, Nissan ought to be taken to task for false advertising.

I'm not anti-EV; they definitely have their niche.  But the public needs to be educated from a holistic perspective.  It boils down to whether TCO fits your lifestyle, and whether the environmental impact of EV's is more acceptable than ICE's.  Of course that depends on the power sources in your area, and personal ethos.

Chuck_IAG
User Rank
Platinum
Re: Dire needs
Chuck_IAG   6/21/2013 11:44:00 AM
@AREV,

I think you've hit on a key point that few EV proponents want to acknowledge.  With the current state of technology, this is a niche vehicle.  If I could get one of these (new or used) for under $5k, maybe a one-seater with a 50-mile range at freeway speeds and enough storage space for an average load of groceries, along with a 5-year battery warranty, I'd consider buying it as a commuter and runabout second car (if I had the garage space).  But with their current prices and limitations, for the average American with limited economic resources to go out and buy one as the family vehicle, dream on.  You can put up web sites all day long; it's not going to convince too many folks unless you outright lie to them.  The latter, of course, usually works.

CharlesM
User Rank
Silver
Re: Bogus Comparisons
CharlesM   6/21/2013 11:40:01 AM
NO RATINGS
...Where is the electrical infrastructure to handle all these vehicle charging systems? Think you can just plug one of these babies in to your suburban home? Perhaps a handful of owners in the neighborhood could do it, but pretty soon, you'll need to upgrade the service all the way back through most of the grid.

Electric car charging uses about the same power as a hot water heater. Do you frantically warn people they need to limit their electrical consumption with respect to anything else? Of course not. I'll bet you resent anyone telling you what you can and cannot have, especially buying more electricity.  When there are enough EVs sold to start stressing our antiquated substation networks, let's talk about a smart grid and other long overdue infrastructure upgrades.

 

J. Williams
User Rank
Platinum
Re: Dire needs
J. Williams   6/21/2013 11:39:58 AM
Charles, what percentage of our electricity comes from coal?  The number is in the thirty percent range at the moment.  Also, coal is one of those base load generation fuels.  If nighttime is the ideal time to re-charge electric cars, coal will be a primary source of electricity.  NG is often used as a peaking fuel because of the ease of quickly bringing units on and off line.

As for whether the government gives money to the fossil fuel industry, could you show me the cancelled check?

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