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RegularJoe70
User Rank
Iron
Re: One other thing that the rulemakers should consider
RegularJoe70   7/1/2013 9:48:53 AM
NO RATINGS
A couple weeks ago, I read an article from another trade rag (link here: http://www.deskeng.com/articles/aabkes.htm ) about the military experimenting with hydrogen fuel cells for automotive use.

The article says that the prototype vehicles carry about 5kg H2 at 10,000 psi.  Assuming the tank is at a balmy 80F, that hydrogen occupies about 24gallons (basic PV = nRT calc).  The article also says that a kg of H2 is roughly equivalent to a gallon of gasoline, so that's about 5 times the volume of ordinary, liquid, atmospheric pressure gasoline, just for fuel.

And that's just the hydrogen.  What about the pressure vessel? And all of the ultra-high pressure lines and pressure regulation and risk of sitting on a bomb?

It's cool that we're experimenting with this technology but I can't see it being anything but a niche application for a long time to come.  Petroleum prices have to get redonkulously expensive before this tech becomes even remotely attractive for a common user.

William K.
User Rank
Platinum
Re: One other thing that the rulemakers should consider
William K.   5/17/2013 8:22:10 PM
NO RATINGS
Windhorn, Six months for an FMEA on one component? Either they are: a.) evaluating it on a molecular level, or b.) doing it part time with a weekly FMEA committee meeting, or c.) Milking the project most strenuously. I can see that there could be 40 pages of report, but it is unomaginable that the FMEA could take that long, if the team understood the product beuing evaluated. If it was a team of "avaerage" engineers that had never seen the product previously and had never worked to gether before then it might take a lot more time. But why in the whole world would a team be selected for an FMEA that did not understand the product intimately. OUr team that worked so (apparently rapidly) knew and understood every aspect of the product completely, prior to our first time spent on doing the FMEA. There is no other raional way to approach such an important project.

windhorn
User Rank
Iron
Re: One other thing that the rulemakers should consider
windhorn   5/16/2013 3:08:05 PM
NO RATINGS
WilliamK wrote:

"...an FMEA for the complete plant would probably take a team of engineers less than a week..."

An FMEA for ONE component of ONE genset takes six engineers about two months (one man-year) and 40 pages.  Multiply that by the number of parts in the building.

Regards,

Allen

Totally_Lost
User Rank
Silver
Re: One other thing that the rulemakers should consider
Totally_Lost   5/14/2013 2:19:46 AM
NO RATINGS
WilliamK writes: "And air pollution comes from many sources and getting rid of all of them will reduce our standard of living to staying in caves and eating rocks. OK, that is an exageration, I know, but I am also aware that there are a whole lot of people, some who are actially well meaning, who want to force us into some utopian realm by taking away most of our freedoms, which include driving away from them in our carbon-based fueld automobiles."

Funny, when I do the math, removing 3.2M deaths and many times that illnesses/injuries from fossil fuel pollution, frees up about $3T to be added back into the global economy to improve the quality of life on this planet ... which is almost enough to pay the entire cost of needed high temp reactors.


If we simply stop producing gasoline/diesel cars/trucks, then other than a small number of collectors vehicles, everything else can be phased out to H2/EV hybrids in two decades or so by natural attrition. Providing H2 conversion kits at a low subsidized cost, will entice even a significant number of car collectors to upgrade, just so they can drive them everyday, without having to find gasoline/diesel which will start to get scarce/expensive with lower volume use.


I don't see any reason to come knocking at your door, asking for your car keys.


That kind of rhetoric is probably FUD.


Totally_Lost
User Rank
Silver
Re: One other thing that the rulemakers should consider
Totally_Lost   5/14/2013 2:04:18 AM
NO RATINGS
WilliamK writes: "But you will find that nobody dies from atmospheric CO, but rather from enclosed space incidents."

So? what's the point? Carbon monoxide poisoning is the most common cause of injury and death due to poisoning worldwide

And it affects an unborn child significantly worse, because the CO binds to their blood in significantly higher percentages, to the point that it means the death or injury of the child, while the mother is just sick from it. Which is a statistic that probably isn't being kept.


All electric homes and shifting to an H2 fuel gas based transportation are two ways to avoid over 20,000 deaths each year world wide, and a significant number of brain and organ injuries for those with near death concentrations.


This isn't the biggest reason for becoming a fossil fuel free planet, unless you are one of the 50,000 or so affected by this each year.


William K.
User Rank
Platinum
Re: One other thing that the rulemakers should consider
William K.   5/13/2013 8:21:20 PM
NO RATINGS
I have nothing against nuclear power plants, I think that they are a god idea but they certainly need to be designed to survive multiple systems failures. BUT that should not be that much more effort, an FMEA for the complete plant would probably take a team of engineers less than a week. It would certainly be time and effort very well spent and could never approach 1% of the cost to build the plant. So  if the power plants can be built using a bit of common sense, with the politicians kept at bay for the duration, we could have a good chance at atomic power to replace the coal fired kind.

But you will find that nobody dies from atmospheric CO, but rather from enclosed space incidents. And a lot of people die from fires, which really can't be blamed on fossile fuel.

And air pollution comes from many sources and getting rid of all of them will reduce our standard of living to staying in caves and eating rocks. OK, that is an exageration, I know, but I am also aware that there are a whole lot of people, some who are actially well meaning, who want to force us into some utopian realm by taking away most of our freedoms, which include driving away from them in our carbon-based fueld automobiles.

Totally_Lost
User Rank
Silver
Re: One other thing that the rulemakers should consider
Totally_Lost   5/13/2013 3:02:20 PM
NO RATINGS
WilliamK writes: "It is still not clear that "many are dying from fossile fuels", at least not around here, in the US." ... and has problems with H2 in automotive use.

I will help with your research ... H2 tank technology and transportation trials - 680 miles in a Prius

http://www.ecogeek.org/content/view/1717/

http://www.rsc.org/chemistryworld/News/2009/July/02070902.asp

US commercial Nuke deaths is close to zero.

I've posted a number of sources to review for US deaths/injury, and world wide death/injury .... some are below ... which easily total more than world wide nuke power related death/injury.

See the following links for US deaths, which are far from zero, plus the other links I provided reciently. Us deaths are significant, world wide are higher. There are particulate related deaths/injury, and chemical related deaths/injury.


This article states: http://www.worldwatch.org/air-pollution-now-threatening-health-worldwide "In the U.S., air pollution causes as many as 50,000 deaths per year and costs as much as $40 billion a year in health care and lost productivity."


The article www.nrdc.org/health/kids/ocar/chap4.asp states: "Which states "A recent study estimated that approximately 64,000 people in the United States die prematurely from heart and lung disease every year due to particulate air pollution".

http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/113/6/e628.abstract

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1247561/

www.environment.ucla.edu/reportcard/article.asp?parentid=1700


http://www.ewg.org/research/particle-pollution-and-sudden-infant-death-syndrome-united-states


http://www.countercurrents.org/cc191212.htm states:  Worldwide, a record 3.2m people a year died from air pollution in 2010"


The article en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbon_monoxide_poisoning states: "In the United States, approximately 200 people die each year from carbon monoxide poisoning associated with home fuel-burning heating equipment.[83] Carbon monoxide poisoning contributes to the approximately 5613 smoke inhalation deaths each year in the United States.[124] The CDC reports, "Each year, more than 500 Americans die from unintentional carbon monoxid"

http://www.transportationconstructioncoalition.org/Docs/TCC-Harvard-Traffic-Congestion-Report-Final.pdf


See the annual cancer deaths from automotive fuels table in http://www.transportation.anl.gov/pdfs/TA/137.pdf


http://www.epa.gov/oar/caa/40th_highlights.html


http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1518961/pdf/envhper00368-0217.pdf


Google may be your friend ... there are LOT's more other issues that I have not posted.


In summary ... zero to a few US Nuke deaths ... US fossil fuel deaths hundreds of thousands.


World wide ... millions. Six to seven orders of magnitude worse than nukes.


What's not clear??



How many More??????


William K.
User Rank
Platinum
Re: One other thing that the rulemakers should consider
William K.   5/13/2013 1:56:10 PM
Pat, it sounds like you are closer to that technology than I am. What sizes and resulting weights are a subject for a detailed computational investigation, since anything else is a guess. Some folks guess very well, but in that area I would need to do all of the math. Good engineering practice dictates that when one does not know, one researches and finds out. But for a hydrogen fueld car, even after you have the best size gas bottle and working pressure all calculated, the serious issue of avoiding leaks is still there. Keeping a hydrogen system intact in a lab environment takes some effort, but in a car that shakes and vibrates it could be much more challenging. That is the basis for my conclusion that it may not be worth the effort. 

Some people, it seems, just don't understand that not everything that can be done can be done satisfactorily and with a reasonable amount of effort. But perhaps there could be some reasonable means to provide hydrogen fuel for all vehicles and power generation and heating applications, as our departed blogger suggests. Or possibly not.

patb2009
User Rank
Gold
Re: One other thing that the rulemakers should consider
patb2009   5/13/2013 9:06:16 AM
williamK

the higher the pressure the thicker the wall, the thicker the wall, the heavier the vessel.

I suspect the trades probably are at a sweet spot for your standard T or K bottle anyways,

i'm just wondering if anyone has ground the numbers out for J/KG in a K bottle at 3000 PSI

how that works out compared to batteries. I suppose when i have a few minutes, i can make a stab at it.

 

 

William K.
User Rank
Platinum
Re: One other thing that the rulemakers should consider
William K.   5/13/2013 7:57:17 AM
It is still not clear that "many are dying from fossile fuels", at least not around here, in the US. So without agreement about that basic premise the rest of the argument becomes rather "secondary". The two people who I knew who died from fossile fuel use died because of motor vehicle accidents, not especially related to vehicle emissions.

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