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Wow  what an excellent presentation  

Many Thanks

Iron

hello from Edmonton, Alberta

Iron

Where are we between the OS Kernel, File Systems and Solid State Memory Technology.  Hard Disk Drives have embedded controllers.  Some applications use the concept of an I/O Controller.  How much isolation (abstraction) does the application programmer need, want, have available.  Micrium provides approaches to [some of] these issues, it would be good to walk through a few slides on where we are ... http://micrium.com/

Might like to see an OS Kernel walk thru on here sometime ...

Thanks Eric, Micrium, Digi-Key, Design News ... Here is the Micrium info on Digi-Key web site -

LINK -->> http://www.digikey.com/US/EN/techzone/microcontroller/supplier/Micrium_Inc__1072.html

 

Thanks for this course Eric.

Iron

Using Hynix PoP flash with hardware as well as software ECC

Iron

hello... 

thanx for your guiding lecture....

I just want ask u one que. that practically which is batter FAST,BAST & k...?

And why...?

Iron

Click on File>Download after logging in.

Iron

The link works great!

Iron

@Eric: Thanks for the link.

Iron

Thanks everyone for attending! I hope you did learn a thing or two! Feel free to leave any questions, I'll try to come back once in a while.

Blogger

kentj, thomd: here it is: https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B2TcyTIEcTbUMFQ3MUlienVQLU0/edit?usp=sharing

Blogger

Kentj. ThomD: Hold on, i need to find a way to share it.

Blogger

Seconded for the animation - the arrows can be a little hard to follow :)

Iron

kentj: I also have a version with *AST slides animated, if you'd like. No audio, though.

Blogger

Thank you Eric and all participants

Today's slides about the *ASTs do require the audio portion to follow. :-)

Iron

@Eric: This is true, but sometime you need to look from a different angle, let say a generic overview.

@Anatoliy1086: most embedded file system products will have manuals that details how to use them.

Blogger

@Eric: Any way it is just one side of the 'development medal' I am hoping that I will find soon some manual for embedded system too.

@Eric: Your nobius source is wonderful, I just was looking for some thing like that. Thank you very much!

@kentj: Glad you could learn a thing or two. You might even be able to grab more info if you can understand the slides I had to skip. The K-AST article would help for that.

Blogger

@Anatoliy1086: has both FS design and usage, but it's not specific to embedded systems, unfortunately.

Blogger

A colleague recommends this: http://www.nobius.org/~dbg/practical-file-system-design.pdf

Blogger

@Eric:  The slides for the week were very informative.  I have a lot of notes to take before I close them.

Iron

Eric can you recommend some books or websites where is more in dept about FS?

Thanks Eric and Lauren for a Great imformative Week!

Iron

ThomD: You're welcome, I hope it wasn't too confusing, I might have had a tad too much material to cover in that lecture!

Blogger

@eric: Thanks again - very good information here.

Iron

ThomD: A good implementation should at least refresh blocks that go over a certain threshold of correctable read errors.

Blogger
ThomD Would like to hear more about parts with built-in ECC - such as Micron M60 (4 bit ECC) and ClearNAND - and flash translation layer changes to match this.
 
Well your FTL needs to support this of course. Ours allows you to specify zones to avoid in the spare area so that the device can store its ECC without overwriting other metadata. Software ECC of course needs to be disabled. Most devices will report ECC status through their status registers so that you will have to read the status register after read operations and also enable the on-chip ECC feature at initialization through some command (Get/Set Feature).

 

Blogger

Regarding bad block management, some NAND vendors recommend "scrubbing" when the corrected error count gets close to the maximum detectable. FTL or controller firmware should handle that function.

Iron

Alaskaman66: it does seem scary when you see those 4 (MLC) or 8 (TLC) charge levels, but ECC really does its magic :)

Blogger

Thanks, Atlant. Four states gives two bits stored; eight states yields three bits.  Didn't know how the electronics worked it out..

vsrollins: Good thing, not using ECC really is a bad idea, esp. with MLC or TLC devices. While it may work when immediately reading a programmed page, I wouldn't expect the data to remain valid very long.
Blogger

Hi rikaspinall - There are 3 additional resources in the "educational resources" section on this page. We'll also be sending out an email to you all early next week with some more resources.

Link to KAST paper: http://nyx.skku.ac.kr/publications/papers/KAST.pdf

Blogger

I have found additional inof about traide-offs in FTL designs:

Design Tradeoffs in a Flash Translation Layer

http://drona.csa.iisc.ernet.in/~gopi/west10/goodson.pdf

rikaspinall: I don't remember having seen some example code, but I'll post a link to the paper detailling KAST.

Blogger
ThomD: A FAT file system can notify the underlying FTL when it is no longer using a block through a "discard" interface. After that, these blocks no longer need to be wear leveled.
 
Yes, this feature is usually called TRIM.
 
Blogger

@eric: True - though some can be determined through experimentation. :)

Iron

This series has been great. Would you have any good books/appnotes/online sources which would supplement this knowledge? I'd be interested in example code or routines too. Thanks Eric - Rik

Thank you, everybody!!

kentj: Good choice in that case, yes.

Blogger

ThomD: I unfortunately don't know. There are also other types of FTLs, and usually companies will not really give much detail about what they're using.

Blogger

Thanks Eric and and Lauren. Great lecture.

Iron

Lots of information with great comparisons. Thanks, Eric

Thanks EJ LM DK & DN

Iron

Thanks, Eric. Very informative, as usual. Much to think about and research further...

Iron
Thank you Eric and and Lauren!
Iron

kostya: I will post a link to an article that details it, as soon as I have a minute.

Blogger

Thank you for an informative session.

Iron

Thanks Eric, good series and gives me things to look out for.

Iron

Given that most of our current designs are only reading, probably wear and RAM usage are our biggest concerns.

Iron

Excellent breakdown on the various penalties! Some OS have built-in Flash Translation Layers (WinCE, Nucleus, Linux has many) - can you say which is which?

Iron

Thenks. It's been a very useful set of lectures

 

Great indeed, thanks a lot!

Iron

Thank you Eric & Lauren.

Have a Nice Weekend.

Iron

Thanks Eric - excellent.

 

I'll review this series again later.

Iron

I would use BAST.  I need to write very seldom, just read many. (WORM)

Iron

Thanks Eric  Great series

Iron

Thank you Eric for the great presentation, thank you also Lauren.

Iron

Thank you again for presenting this series.

Iron

Great presentation, thanks so much

Iron

KAST - low wear and low RAM usage

Iron

Need to review and understand better before selecting FTL.

Iron
Where I can look for information about K-association? I mean book or application note.
Iron

"Thrashing", not "Trashing" ;-)

Iron

The client's software engineer handles the NAND programming, but I'm trying to come up to speed on these issues to assist with integration and system troubleshooting.

Iron

A FAT file system can notify the underlying FTL when it is no longer using a block through a "discard" interface. After that, these blocks no longer need to be wear leveled.

Iron

NAND: Yes, with a Flash-specific filesystem (UBIfs) that *STILL* uses an FTL (UBI).

 

Iron

@ca028:  Irradiation gives uncertain results.

Iron

@Alaskaman66: typical block erase take ~700 usec, program takes ~200 uses

caa028: Sorry, I don't know.

Iron

Bad blocks is real pain, it requires additional software control

@Atlant - how about irradiation? will that "free" the trapped charge?

Iron

Static Wear Leveling for the win!

Iron

caa208: Yes, irreversible. The stray charges get trapped in the gate dielectric.

Iron

Alaska: So (conceptually), the floating gate can have 0 electrons, 33 electrons, 66 electrons, or 100 electrons.

 

Iron

Is this charge trapping problem irreversible?

Iron

I'm using FRAM on my devices but flash drives for updating firmware.

Iron

Alaska: Each cell can have four (or eight) possible levels (amounts) of charge on the floating gate and the read amplifiers can distinguish all of those levels.

Iron

MLC and TLC: are the multiple bits stored as different voltage levels, or do you actually read out multiple bits at same voltage?

@Kentj: Flash Drives (USB) have a controller with the NAND, so they handle ECC in that controller (if any)

Iron

Using NAND. Ran into the BER issue a few chip revisions ago. Software engineer was convinced ECC was unnecessary, but after much back and forth with vendor, datasheets, and ONFI standards finally saw reason.

Iron

No using any at this point.

Iron

Does a flash drive use NAND flash?  If so does it have built in ECC?

Iron

Using NAND and NOR type

Hamming in hardware

 

Iron

Not Using any right now.

Iron

Not implementing at that level, so its handled by the hardware I'm interfacing with.

Iron

Not used NAND Flash so far.

I love Digi-Key for checking data sheets.

Iron

Would like to hear more about parts with built-in ECC - such as Micron M60 (4 bit ECC) and ClearNAND - and flash translation layer changes to match this.

Iron

@Alaskaman66:  You need to check the data sheet.  Different sizes and different manufacturers have different speeds.

Iron

How long does itntake to do a complete erase operation?

@alanta luck has for the last six years, but i expect, as they get worn, they'll start giving problems. just replace the boards.  again, they are not being used that much, only once a mission, not continuous random access.

Good morning all from CA

Iron

@rruther2 does sound good

Iron

Yea!!! I'm here...thanks for having these lectures.

Iron

Audio is loud and clear...

Iron

Hi all - Audio is live! Please refresh your browser and then hit the play button.

drrowley_lpe: If your system is running successfully with ECC, consider yourself *VERY, VERY* lucky. Most NAND Flash absolutely depends upon ECC to handle the routinely-occurring single-bit errors.

And your luck won't hold.

 

Iron

Sterbucks

1.) Sweet Smokey Barbecue Kettle Potato Chips

2.) Dry Roasted Almonds

3.) Glased Cashews with Pomegranite & Vanilla

all for the $5.00

Iron

morning! newest ppt downloaded.

Iron

mRlu2012: Dont feel bad; we have 260 inches so far this winter.

On the flavored coffees, they finally took the sugar alcohol out of the "sugar free" flavorings.  Sugar alcohol is still sugar for diabetics.

Iron

digging out from snowy Boston!

Iron

Good Morning All. Time for coffee

 

Good afternoon everyone from sunny and chilly Toronto!

Iron

Please note that this morning we replaced today's slide deck with an updated powerpoint. Please download latest version.

Platinum

Good morning, everyone...

Iron

@mRlu2012:  Thanks.  Good to know.  I thought I was going to have to spec in a new part.

Iron

developed 4GB and 24GB nand flash cards, with systems up to 480GB, with no ECC. Found ECC to be very processor time heavy and complicated. each page does have crc. it several hundered missions, there has been no errors detected. the flash are setup to write in sequence, not random, and in each mission, only one page will be used.

Hello from Cedar Park TX

Iron
Kentj
 

Yes, Ramtron was acquired by Cypress.

Iron

Greetings from eastern Mass. Another 12 inches of snow on the ground!

Iron

Hi from upstate NY.  We have an unidentified luminescent opject in the sky.  I think it may be sol but we see it so seldom I can't remember.

Thanks for the headsup on the slide deck Lauren

Iron

Please note that this morning we replaced today's slide deck with an updated powerpoint. Please download latest version.

Platinum

@bitbanger55:  When I checked the data sheet for Cypress FRAM it turned out to be the Ramtron data sheet so either Cypress bought Ramtron or it is mismarked on the Digi-Key website.

Iron

Hello all, from Richmond, TX

Iron

Hello every body.

For my audio to work: I have to click the play button on the streaming audio player twice (2nd after the blog talk radio audio)  to get it to stream for me. My company finely let the audio through last year.

Iron

@Deb C great, can't wait to see your tweets!

Platinum

The streaming audio player will appear on this web page when the show starts at 2pm eastern today. Note however that some companies block live audio streams. If when the show starts you don't hear any audio, try refreshing your browser.

Platinum

Hi from Newmarket, On

 

Iron

Hello everyone! In Manchester, NH, the snow has stopped!

Iron

Signing in from Chicago!

Iron

Greetings from Raleigh NC

Iron

@Lauren....thanks, I just started following  on Twitter.

Iron

@drw36: FYI - I used PowerPointViewer 2007 and PCF-XChange 4.0 to create an 872 KB PDF.

Iron

Interesting.  Very interesting.

Iron

Hello from Tennessee!

Iron

@bitbanger55 - I saved it with LibreOffice and it shrank to 327K. But all the graphic elements now have a badly offset shadow. Looks like I'm viewing a 3D movie without the 3D glasses. Saving as pdf shrank it to 1.8M and that looks fine.

Iron

Good morning from huntsville, Al

Iron

Be sure to follow @designnews and @DigiKeyCEC on Twitter for the latest class information. We encourage you to tweet about today's class using the hashtag #CEC.

Platinum

Good morning from San Jose, CA

Iron

Snowy here in MA.

Iron

Good Morning from SUNNY San Jose, CA.

It's 52°F now and a High of 57°F.

Iron

Hello from Tornoto.

Iron

Hello from Fresno, CA

Iron

Good morning everyone.

Iron

@StephMcGUBM - I second @ucschmidt's motion. Two minutes would be acceptable, five minutes would be better. If starting the audio stream before the hour is a problem, I would rather have music start at the hour, and the presentation two minutes later.

Iron
@ucschmidt...Thank you so much for the suggestion. We will review our available options for future classes.

 

@Lauren Muskett....  Many individuals have suggested starting the player with music several minutes early. This will give us some time to get the audio working before the the lecture starts. This week I have been missing the first several minutes every day. Missing the introduction makes the rest harder to follow.

 
Iron

Please note that we have replaced today's slide deck with an updated powerpoint. Please download latest version.

Platinum

Good Morning, everyone

Snowing in NJ

Iron

Hello from Milwaukee!

Iron

The streaming audio player will appear on this web page when the show starts at 2pm eastern today. Note however that some companies block live audio streams. If when the show starts you don't hear any audio, try refreshing your browser.

Platinum

I saved today's slide deck as a PDF, and the file size is in line with other days (less than 1MB).

Iron

Sorry everyone about the last minute slide deck update. I don't know why it's so big, my version is in .pptx and takes only 377KB. I've checked and they do look fine, however.

Blogger

OpenOffice saved it and compressed it almost 10-1. Even though I said save it in original format. So there must be a bunch of bloat in the original.

looking forward to see how/if the slides have been corrected

Iron

I downloaded the slide back on 3/5 and the PPT package was 1.2 MB. What happened ?

GOOD MORNING from very SNOWY BOSTON, TGIF..... Roger that on the download Powerpoint, much larger 9.75 MG's than the usual 1 MG slides.

Iron

Greetings from Vermont, light snow, 35F

Iron

Good morning from Scottsdale,AZ

Iron

Please note that we have replaced today's slide deck with an updated powerpoint.  Please download latest version.

Platinum

Morning from Portland Oregon

Iron

Good Morning from GA

Iron
Hello ,I'm happy to join class.

Day 5 slides seem to have lots of NAND flash technology background - it will be interesting to hear in the lecture how much of this an embedded system designer needs to actually deal with vs. it just being nice to know.

Download complete.

Iron

Ok, now to get tomorrow's slides!

Iron

Slide deck download for March 8 Day 5 is an error: 404 at 2013-03-05 10:06 (GMT-5).

Just had to be first huh? ;-)

Iron


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