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Thanks Eric and Lauren.

Iron

I understand the lifetime of flash memory is limited in the number of erase\program cycles, but is the lifetime of data storage in flash drives limited?

Iron

hello all from Edmonton, Alberta

Iron

Lots of Options on DigiKey web site for EEPROM (serial/parallel and variants), NOR and NAND Flash, F-RAM and more ...

Users comments and Presenter Q & A with users in 'live chat' (blog) area helps a lot ...

eric: let suppose we have a memory device and we are using it for task 1.

after complition of task device became idel than we use it for task 2. but the task 2 need diffrent memory capcity as in task 1.

i mean that can we increase or decrease   the memory capcity and restrict it accourding to the task requirement...?

Iron

pradhmanyu: Do you mean restrict the storage space you use on a device? I'm not sure I understand your question.

Blogger

hello Eric...

Thanks  for sharing your knowlage.

i had one question.

Can we change the capacity of any memory device as our requirement? means can we programed the capacity of our memory device??

Iron

5 PM whistle time here in CNY. Got to run. See you online tomorrow, God willing.

How's the weather down Houston way ? My sister used to live in suburbs north of Houston, Wood something. Been there once, visiting, back in 82. Now she's in Tulsa.

We're still buying the 5V SRAM parallel interface chips. They were supposed to go EOL but are still available. I didn't know about Cypress. And I think Freescale or TI have some other magneto semiconductor technology for NV memory applications, but I don't have any experience with them.

I'm on Digi-Key's website on another computer and Ramtron isn't even listed anymore. only Cypress and Fujitsu.  But if you want the 40MHz SPI part, only Cypress.

Iron

Yeah, I'm trying to read and record 1M 24-bit readings per second.  That definitely won't work.

Iron

We use 100-400 KHz clock depending on other peripherals. Only change major parameters via user interface or computer comm. link when using I2C non-vol backup. The major use in our products use the bytewide parallel SRAM interface to an intel 80188 style uP. These write through in nS bus cycles. We use CRC or checksums and redundancy to protect against loss of power during updates. Batteries not required. Being the software guy, the FRAM is the best, parallel or I2C. Haven't tried the SPI yet.

I haven't used I2C because I thought it was too slow.  How fast do you use it at?

Iron

My system is 3.3V but I have to use a 5V phase detector.  I'm using a logic level shifter for it.

Iron

Only problem is sole-source by Ramtron in Colorado. Supposed to be licensed by Japanese company too, I think Fujitsu. But have had supply problems, and obsolescence issues too. We use 5v tech in our legacy items, now everything is 3v . Also, we used parallel chips so could use for fast bus access RAM just like normal data memory. Now mostly use I2C serial style for non-vol database for embedded products. The quick write, virtually infinite write longevity can't be beat.

I've been a long time user of FRAM. Love it, the best memory technology out there.

Here I was singing the praises of FRAM and suddenly thought no one was here.

Iron

It was quiet, I thought I was the only one left.

Iron

Hi @Kentij , what's up?

Now that my posts are going through if I refresh my browser between posts, Is anybody else on here?

Iron

Unlike Flash and EEPROM, FRAM has a 40MHz SPI not 20MHz and as I said before, no write delay.

Iron

FRAM also has trillions of read/write/modify cycles.  And, most importantly, are available from Digi-Key.

Iron

@alaskaman66:  EPROMS, EEPROMS, Flash all erase in high radiation environments unless they are Rad hardened.  FRAM does not, is byte programmable and has no write delay

Iron

What technology is used for solid state drives and who is a technology leader?

What advantages and disadvantages of solid state drives over other storage media?

Thank you. See you tomorrow.

Iron

Hang in there, Friday's a comin' !

Thanks everyone for attending, see you tommorow for "The Challenges of Using NAND Flash Memory in Embedded Systems"!

Blogger

Alaskaman66: Can SD cards be ganged togethor for additional capacity?

You can have more than one SD card on the same bus, if that's what you're asking, but it's something I don't see often!

 

 
 
Blogger

Atlant: you're welcome, it's an often overlooked aspect of those storage technologies - some often don't realize that before.

Blogger

Atlant: yes, with TLC, cell life must be quite short.

Blogger

Eric: By the way, I was very interested in your comments about the poor random I/O rates on SD, SB, etc. -- thank you very much for that information!

Iron

Atlant: Agreed, and datasheets for SD cards and thumb drives are a rare thing, so you don't really know what kind of random write performance you can achieve.

Blogger

But one also encounters the even-lower endurance of the TLC parts as compared to MLC.

Iron

Atlant: with enough ECC they still achieve the same bit error rate, you should be able to get good results.

Blogger

eric: One "trick" is that manufacturers are somewhat "cagey" (non-descriptive) about which sort of Flash you're dealing with, especially when it's a packaged system like a USB stick or an SD (etc.) card.

 

Iron

eric: Oh yes! We had bad results with 4-level MLC and would never even consider 8-level MLC!

Iron

Atlant: and that is worse with MLC and TLC devices where there are 4 and 8 possible states per cell, depending on the amount of charge on the floating-gate.

Blogger

Alaska: My Nikon uses Class-10 full-sized SD in the 2TB-compatible format.

 

Iron

Alaskaman66: Eric, does Error Correction use CRC math?

The most common ECC types are Hamming codes and BCH codes.

 
Blogger

eric: (Re wear leveling) Yes, but we're going to take explicit steps to force our non-scrubbing file system (UBIfs) to scrub by reading through the entire medium from time-to-time.

Iron

Heat and radiation are some of electronics worst enemies

Iron

Alaskaman: The difference between a "1" and a "0" in a Flash (SLC!) cell is now down below 100 electrons, so it doesn't take too many electrons leaking off of the floating gate to flip a bit.

 

Iron

Atlant: yes, static wear leveling can also help, assuming you write some data.

Blogger

What storage media are the HD cameras using, like Nikon

jack212: :) We not device manufacturers, though...

Blogger

Do flash devices self-erase in high radiation environments?

Thanks. "low demand" is the feedback I was looking for.

Iron

Good presentation

I am pleased with the slides being

there online days before...

 

Iron

Fantastic lecture with great information. Thanks Eric!

jack212: I don't really know unfortunately, we don't get much demand for that...

Blogger

"...when the day comes..."

Iron

Eric: Right. We've seen the phenomenon where seldom/never-read pages on our device silently sit there accumulating disturb errors and whe the day comes that we finally read the page, blamm! It's got too many errors to be corrected by the ECC.

It's therefore important that one's Flash File System knows that it has to "scrub" its way through all of the Flash every so often, correcting all the accumulated simgle-bit errors.

Iron

Atlant: If it's being read often however, you might be getting some recoverable ECC errors, which might trigger a refresh of the block. It it's sitting there idle, however, this won't help.

Blogger

Eric: Great -- thanks!

Iron

Atlant: yes, I had this planned for tomorrow (disturbs), but the lecture might be a little long, so I may have to go fast through that stuff.

Blogger

Is OneNAND still a viable option?

Iron

mRIu2012: Program/Erase cycles

Blogger

Eric: More coverage of write-disturb and especially read-disturb would also be good. Many people don't realize that the data stored in a NAND Flash degrades with *EVERY READ* (albeit at a much slower rate than when neighboring cells are written) so there is can be no such thing as a reliable "Read only" Flash memory; bad block recovery still has to be possible.

Iron

Atlant: Yes, wouldn't have been a bad idea. For Flash memory usually the typical data retention time is 10 years. This does decrease with read/program disturbances, however.

Blogger

Thank you Eric and Lauren

Iron

Eric: on the last slide what are the units for the solid state media expected life?

 

Iron
thank you Eric! Very nice presentation & lection
Iron

Thanks Again Eric and Lauren!

Iron

Lots of good info by the group and you, thanks alot, connect with everybody tommorrow. Thank you

Iron

Thank you Eric and Lauren.

Iron

Very informative lecture!

Iron

Eric: It would be good to add "retention time" to your comparison table. While magnetic disks physically wear out (or develop head stiction, etc.), the data they store lasts until the mechanical device fails. But Flash memories (of all sorts) have their bits decay over time so data stored for (say) 10 years on a device may become unreadable even though the device itself hasn't really "failed".

Iron

@gaun this was a 32 bit application so 2 16 bit SDRAM connected to the 16 bit data bus

Iron

@gaun parallel address and data lines

Iron

Alaskaman: Essentially, yes. See the Wiki article for details.

Iron

Can SD cards be ganged togethor for additional capacity?

@gaun for using with GPIO lines, then more suitable to use static RAM. But price somewhat high.
Iron

Eric, does Error Correction use CRC math?

@gaun parallel 8 or 16 bits, sometimes 32 bits
Iron

Ooops late will catch start in archives

Iron

@tomboalogo: Connected using what bus?

Iron

@gaun external SDRAM for framebuffer and main memory

Iron
they has SDRAM controller inside, so one need only- SDRAM chip
Iron

hi all

From colombia

 

Iron

@kostya2012: What interface?

Iron
alot ARM based MCU has interface for SDRAM
Iron
aye, we using SSRAM, SDRAM (SDR, DDR2)
Iron

@Atlant: Soldered RAM or the internal mcu/cpu RAM or RAM connected to GPIO lines.

Iron

gaun: Do you mean RAM DIMMs (etc.) as compared to soldered-on RAM?

Iron

USB thrumb drive connection to instrument

Iron

Are people using RAM using external RAM?

Iron

I work on unmanaged flash devices.  I write device drivers for Micron's Flash Data Interface (FDI), which is a file system for flash.  This free product is especially useful for Mobile Phones (feature phones, not smart phones). 

Iron

Thumb USB drive, NAND, NOR, SPI

USB Mass, SD, NOR Flash

 

NOR, NAND, SDcard, Serial dataflash, RAM of course

 

Iron

Have used EEPROM and FRAM for storage.

Iron

@mharkins: bus please.

Iron

Currently considering SD Card.

Iron

NOR Flash, NAND Flash, SD, USB Mass

Iron

Compact Flash Card and USB

Iron

USB Flash memory (thumb drive)

Iron

microSD using SPI bus.

Iron

Unmanaged Flash, USB, Compact Flash

Iron

hello from Prairieville, LA

Iron

Gaun: Nope, This town has a population of about 3200. We do have NOAA, Alyeska Pipeline Terminal, and Coast Guard here

Audio is loud and clear...

Iron

greetings from Raleigh NC

Iron

Hello once again from Cedar Park TX

Iron

Hi all - Audio is live!

hello from Timisoara, Romania

Iron

@Alaskaman66: Are there a lot of tech companies in Valdez?

Iron

Good afternoon everyone from cloudy and chilly Toronto

Iron

Good morning, everyone...

Iron

Good Morning from Valdez everyone

Good morning from CA

Iron

Hello Everybody!

It going to be an other great webinar.

Iron

ready for another! :)

Iron

Hello from Reston, VA

Iron

Please join our Digi-Key Continuing Education Center LinkedIn Group at http://linkd.in/yoNGeY

Platinum

Good afternoon everyone.

Iron
@bitbanger55  I was able to download today's slide deck without problem. Please let me know if anyone else is experiencing an issue.

The streaming audio player will appear on this web page when the show starts at 2pm eastern today. Note however that some companies block live audio streams. If when the show starts you don't hear any audio, try refreshing your browser.

Platinum

Hello from Milwaukee!

Iron

Be sure to click 'Today's Slide Deck' under Special Educational Materials above right to download the PowerPoint for today's session.

Platinum

Greetings from eastern Mass. A cold and slushy/snowy 32°F all day.

Iron

Morning everybody.

 

Iron

Wish you all well, everyone!

Iron

Thanks to those who answered my questions yesterday.  I didn't see them until I went over everything last night.

Iron

Has anyone noticed lately how the chicken at fast food restaurants seems to come from Cornish game hens?  And they charge even more for them!  As my dad always said, "They sure don't make 'em like they used to."

Iron

Good morning from Edmonton, AB

Iron

Good morning from Los Anageles!

Iron

Good Morning from San Jose, CA.

It's 44°F now and a High of 54°F.

Rain Tonight.

Iron

Good Morning from Windy Snowy Boston!

Iron

Morning from portland oregon

Iron

greetings from Fresno, CA

Iron

Good morning, everyone

Iron

Good morning from Mesa, AZ

Iron

Good morning from Mobile, AL

Hello all from Richmond, TX.  Balmy 46F.

Iron

Day 4 slides - thanks for the comparison tables; great to have a handy summary on tradeoffs for storage media.

really, great slides, very informative

Iron

As of 2013-03-05 10:15 working link is http://downloads.deusm.com/designnews/CEC-March-7-Day-4-Files-Systems.ppt .

Slide deck download for March 7 Day 4 is an error: 404 at 2013-03-05 10:05 (GMT-5).



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