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Thanks William for an interesting series

Iron

Thank you William. Great lecture and presentation!

Iron

I like your use of simile.

Gold

Enjoyed them all, anything else I have to say has already been said in the posts noted below.

Iron

I appreciate the repetition for effect - it works to drive home critical points.  I would tho like to see a little consolidation and maybe introduce a half dozen slides (interspersed over three days if needed) on particulars of Development Boards and RTOS's to also solidify some key points ... altogether - a worthwhile class from a knowledgeable instructor.

If Development boards are indicators, am thinking some vendors may want to hire me to architect, design and implement boards for them ... cheaper than an applications engineer running around from client to client ...

Good insight in relating semiconductor issues in 8 / 16 bit systems to the 32 bit business and applications

Thanks Bill, I enjoyed the course.

Iron

Rough week.....catching it a bit late.  Thanks for having this series and archiving them after.

Iron

Thank you Bill and all participants! Wonderful week! Best Regards!

Thank you all for paying attention this week. A lot of the resources we discussed can be found at the Digi-Key website, including recent device announcements, development boards, and starter kits.

 

Again, thanks for participating and have a Great Weekend, everybody!

@Bill have a great weekend

Iron

It's getting late for me - any last questions or comments?

Datasheets of lcd manufactures especially from hitachi makes grown men weepI

haha  Very well said!

Datasheets of lcd manufactures especially from hitachi makes grown men weep.

Iron

I like Microchip and NXP notes and I had problems with Atmel

It think Toshiba and Hitachi need english speaking people to help them out.

Iron

Hitachi has the worst.

Iron

Hey, is anyone using the Intel 80186 architecture? It's the full 16-bit version of the 8051.

@EdB_Vt: I ned to solicit fe3edback. Good/bad is relative, and I that's why am very interested in the opinions here.

TI has a huge huge list of msp430 projects in one single application note which is fantastic.

 

Iron

Toshiba app notes are a little hard to understand.

Iron

@Bill Sounds like a good online article follow-up. Distill your presentation and the chats into bullet points. A final section for comparing the "good" candidates, e.g. dev boards, library support (USB, Ethernet, HMI, etc), errata, app notes.

Iron

Who needs to do app notes better, or their app notes are hard to understand?

Microchip, TI and Maxim all have good application notes.

Iron

Good to know - Maxim is a major 8051 player and they are a little quiet about it.

@BillGiovino: maxim integrated has some of the best 8051 application notes I have seen.

Iron

I realized that the topic of application notes is something I could have discussed more this week.

Any feedback on application notes? Can anyone tell me which semiconductor companies do you think has the best application notes, and who doesn't?

BillGiovino: Very Very Important. I have a huge bunch of printed application notes in my office and at home.

Iron

Me too, Puppy Linux, It worked for me from thumb drive. But before I had expeirence with Fedora and RH

Then Debian and Ubuntu on PowerBook PC

@UART thanks for listening!

Application notes are extremely important.  Especially when it's a new subject.

Iron

Well, Im now off to Element14 com now guys. Thanks Bill.

Iron

I haven't learned FAT anything yet.  Looking forward to the next class.

Iron

Tell me, how important do you all consider application notes to be?

I started on DSL linux. This was during my transitioning while leaning the Fat32.

Iron

I started with Puppy Linux on a 1GHz old laptop.

For SoC development linaro(http://www.linaro.org/) initiative is the major step for open tools. If people here get some time please try contributing to it.

Iron

@KentJ available online: LinuxMint com. It's for those windows users needing to get their feet wet in Linux.

Iron

@UART: where do I find Linux Mint?

Iron

If you're a C programmer then Linux should be your first choice.

Iron

@Bill: Same here Bill, unfortunately.

Alot of the 'cooler' tools aren't available under Linux so dual it is.

Iron

Yes, I am interested learn more about Embbeded Linux, I had chance to work on development of embedded platform for LCD market but was laid off.

Currently, I am looking at Rasbery PI platform

I love Linix- I do play with Debian, Ubuntu, Lubuntu, 

Also used to use NetBSD for a PPC405GP.

Iron

Used to use it. Maybe I should have been sued for stupidity -- but that is another issue.

 

That Toshiba is a 64 Bit MIPS ...

Iron

Ubuntu is a good start. Try Linux Mint

Iron

Anyway -- great week -- good luck with the consulting.. Been there..

Iron

@DaveWR is that "sued to use it"?

Iron

I am dual-booting Windows XP and Linux on one of my laptops.

I may be switching back to GCC and COOCox since the TI abandonment -- sued to use it for ARM7 & 9.

Iron

I'm learning on Ubuntu Linux

Iron

@Bill - Using Windoze because of all of the other hats, and all of the other software on my PC.

Iron

I'm too much of a newbie in Linux to be using it as a developement platform.

Iron

Myself. A complete GNU person. Use the msp-gcc and the mspdebug with gdb-proxy on linux.

Iron

Embedded linux -- have actually configured Slack 7 though 10 for embedded as I said the other day.

Will look at it again shortly with a high end ARM -- just want to finish current projects. Maybe Raspberry PI -- just about bought in -- too much on the go -- and then there is the $200 for a real working system for my purpose.

 

Iron

Anyone using Linux as a developnment platform? More and more compilers run on Linux now, you know.

@Bill: I will... Thanks a lot, this was a nice week, I learned to many things.

Iron

@BillGiovino: There is a 64 bit microcontroller by Toshiba the TX4927TM

Iron

Embedded Linux, yes.

Iron

Oh well, see ya all l8r.  lunch is over.  back to memory mapping so I can write my boot loader!  And yes I'd love to learn more about Embedded linux.

Iron

@UART -- have a look here. Not my style but great for some.

sit: www  dor state-machine  dot com

Iron

Anyone here with an interest in Embedded Linux?

Yes seasoned that's it -- with oregano lol.

Iron

@Bill, its all a choice of spices!

Iron

Some are more well seasoned than others.

@DaveWR  Antique?  I prefere a seasoned veteran!

Iron

Never loose prespective of where you're going, when you're down in the dirt!

Perspective - Use It or Lose It!

While at GE Security, I co authored the NPI process.  Totally took it from a task driven perspective to requirements flow down.  Totally different perspective, but a good one IMO.

Iron

@dave: I have friends that use that. They're diverse enough to apply to just about anything, not just technology. I love dedication ( i know, this can be dangerous).

I'll take your advice and keep my options open.

Iron

I got my job just by explaining how my prototype worked at a convention in Novi, MI

More and more today, being a good communicator is essential to getting an engineering job.

@Bill -- some of us love antiques -- heck we ARE antiques... rotflmao!

Iron

@mh -- yes I mentioned the design vs programming because many do lose sight of where they are going... without the top down design (requirements) it sure is easy to get lost.

Iron

I think the S3C2440 is an ARM9 - you might want to look at a more modern device.

@KentJ  We went through a major layoff in my group.   Left me doing it all at the moment.  Hardware, firmware, systems, and development cost quoting.  Keeps life interesting no???

Iron

@mharkins -- I started out doing only hardware, then got forced into firmware.  -- unm yeah sounds familiar...

Iron

@DaveWR  You got it.  Never loose prespective of where you're going, when you're down in the dirt!  LOL

Iron

@mharkins: I'm having to do both being the sole design engineer.  My brother who is the other engineer is a systems engineer.

Iron

fwiw -- for what it's worth... sheesh can't spell or program...

Iron

@mharkins -- Top down design bottom up programming? That's what I think. Seems you're saying that too? Do I get that right?

dwiw

Iron

@KentJ: if you're coming from hardware, you stand a better chance at being great at it. You know all about Xc, etc. so just understanding how to reach registers are a breeze for you. Unlike us programmers...

Iron

@Kentj, I started out doing only hardware, then got forced into firmware.  Now love to do firmware more!  Go figure.

Iron

@UART -- State diagrams -- used them from the beginning -- always work. (For me and every techie I know)  Have a good loook -- maybe you'll convert -- maybe not. Your call.

@mharkins -- the threoretical side of CS is good for RTOS and algorithms -- but pure CS without Hardware -- almost impossible to do the HW interfaces with out steep learing curve. Agreed.

 

Iron

@Uart  I can't architect a firmware solution without flow diagrams.  Need to think it through at a higher level before I start coding.  Maybe its just me.  BTW, I've done medical product too.  Life safety product, and then your everyday thermostats.

Iron

I'm primarily a hardware man trying to write embedded code.  It's a challenge, but it will work.

Iron

... especially when dealing with medical grade equipment!

Iron

@mHarkins: ... and thats why you'd better have know your templates. I don't like flowcharts, you cant flowchart runaway code..

Iron

How many people have seen software programmers cross over and try and write embedded code?  The time's I've ran into it has not been successful.  They are two totaly different worlds.

Iron

@DAVE I use good templates as much as possible, with respect to Microcontroller grade. I found that you cannot alway rely on datasheets and white notes to get you by.

Embedded Systems Engineering is TRULY an art.

and those who know it, their work shows.
 (I'm still learning... even when/if it works)

 

Iron

@gaun.  I can see that as being useful.  My problem has always been that each new project differes too much from the last.  I might pull up code I wrote 5 years ago, and revamp it, but never had the chance to work on consistent enough projects to reuse code to the library level. 

You're saying it get poring going in circles?  AInt that the truth!!

Iron

I've met so many degreed people that were book smart with no practical knowledge.

Iron

@mharkins I have officially been on both sides -- sympathetic to you and the proff. Had many PhD and MaSc working for me -- not all are worth the bucks -- lots are.

Iron

@mharkins: writing an n'th iteration of circular queue gets boring after sometime :)

Iron

I've been turned down (or not even interviewed) for not having a degree many a time.  I've always looked at it as I wouldn't want to work for a company who sees the value of its people as a piece of paper first, and accomplishments second.

Iron

@mharkins: I am taking some time out to write a good library especially for circular queues etc. Helps a lot when I want to have a quick but efficient proto when interfacing with buses.

Iron

@UART -- Some of the stuff I do in NP Problem -- (NP Hard, NP Complete etc) solution programming is pretty tough without the academic side -- as for the rest...

I was a project manager at 19 -- been there.

Iron

@Bill: Last question... It´s the S3C2440 a recomended microprocessor for new designs? May be we should consider a diferent Micro...


Our finally product is a monitoring and controlling system... Remote control of water tanks. We´re using USB ports (Wi-fi, internet acess, IIC comunication, serial ports. Basically we´re getting information of the system and controlling actuators.

Iron

@Kentj  LOL  So you're saying you measure up without the degree right?!?  :)

Iron

Some of the newer companies are exceptions to this rule, and those who are heavily plugged into Gov't resources.

Iron

And no, I don't mean meteoorology.

Iron

I've been doing metrology work for over 40 years with no degree.

Iron

I got my job just by explaining how my prototype worked at a convention in Novi, MI. I brought it up there and was hired. No questions asked.

I wonder about Degrees now...

Iron

@guan  Not really.  Seems every new project is a new project.  I sometimes will re-use algorithms I've written previously (always with an eye for improving them) but never taken the time to structure them in a library.

Iron

best optimizer is between your ears


Impressive. Most impressive.

@Bill  been doing it for over 30 years, and still have no degree.  Oh well.

Iron

A question for people here. Do you have a set of self written data structure libraries which you write once and reuse everytime in your project?

Iron

@Bill: The ONLY time I'll consider ASM100% is when memory and operation are mission-critical. I found ways around that now without all the overhead $$.

Iron

Thank you so much, Bill!  Excellent lectures.  And thanks to Bill and everyone else for the discussion here!  Good stuff!

Iron

Thanks for the lectures Bill.  I'm off to class.  Teaching a fledging group of students how to take over their world with code.

Guess no one wanted to touch that question of my 2 year program.  I know... their still is that stigma in the HR departments.  Serious issues are that most of my most bright students don't want to or can't afford a 4 year school.  All that talent is going un-used.  I employ a few of them on some embedded projects that are on government contracts, but I'm not ready to hire them all

What a shame. embedded programming is one of the few sciences where you can be self-taught and still be a professional.

@gaun: good one -- best optimizer is between your ears -- impressed me already.

Iron

Writing everything in assembly is tedious and waste of time. Critical sections of the code written in assembly is great.

Best way to code it! Also, assembly language often looks good on your resume - but sometimes non-assembly language hacks (9-5'ers) will be afraid of you because you might make them look bad

Oh yea, good ol DDJ.

Iron

Thanks for the lectures Bill.  I'm off to class.  Teaching a fledging group of students how to take over their world with code.

Guess no one wanted to touch that question of my 2 year program.  I know... their still is that stigma in the HR departments.  Serious issues are that most of my most bright students don't want to or can't afford a 4 year school.  All that talent is going un-used.  I employ a few of them on some embedded projects that are on government contracts, but I'm not ready to hire them all. 

I make my Assembly C-Friendly, then make the C User-Friendly. Thats my Hierarchy.

Iron

Some of the best assembly programming I have seen written like koans is michael abrash Graphics programming black book. http://www.drdobbs.com/parallel/graphics-programming-black-book/184404919

Iron

@DaveWR  I hear you there Dave.  All too well!  :(  But then, its how we shine isn't it!  LOL

Iron

@Bill. Put the picture up on your site -- wirth Spock watching you work. Will increase bizness!

Iron

@mharkins -- My record is over 10 years with no ECOs -- Math Processors, comm protocol processors etc. Yes fixing things for others -- great career eh? lol

Iron

I do work for a family resource company -- am the Science Officer -- they claim I cast spells to make machinery/scientific equipment work.

I freely admit that there has always been a picture of Spock near my desk.

@gaun: Yes, of course, however not the whole code. Your underlying of critical operations should be ASM but everything else would be C.

This is what I do; I just don't like C telling my MCs what to do. Hard to track bugs.

Iron

@Bill  I do work for a family resource company -- am the Science Officer -- they claim I cast spells to make machinery/scientific equipment work... maybe Luminary would have been a good home if they are that strange... rotfl

Iron

@DaveWR  LOL!  Aint that the truth.  I've recently returned to a company I previously worked at for 13 years.  All the products I designed previously are still in the market with no issues.  SO what do I do now?  Fix all the products that were released after I left!  Sheesh!  It not only takes an understanding of doing code, or design, it takes a fundemental understanding of the market needs to implement a proper user interface, or to avoid the pit falls of "when things go wrong"

Iron

@UART: Writing everything in assembly is tedious and waste of time. Critical sections of the code written in assembly is great.

Iron

@Bill: Monitoring and controlling system... Remote control of water tanks. We´re using USB ports (Wi-fi, internet acess, IIC comunication, serial ports. Basically we´re getting information of the system and controlling actuators.

Iron

@DaveWR, thanks for that feedback. I had some strange dealings with Luminary when they were first putting signs on the door. Made me unconfortable.

I agree. Good ol Assembly. I love being as close to the processor as possible. Assembly language gets you there. Right away You'll know the feel of it in operation on your prototypes.

Yes it's longer but I don't no long consider work as work, even when at home!

Iron

@mharkins -- sounds familiar -- master of all trades -- or you get blamed right?

Iron

@Bill. All the Luminary Parts -- pfffttt! Gone -- claim they will still make -- but trust is a little shaky right now.

Iron

@Bill  For the record, most people think of me as a EE.  I just cover all aspects of it.  Thats what happens after a few (ha ha) years of doing it.   I design the hardware, system architecture, firmware architecture, and do coding depending upon the specific project requirements.

Iron

@javawantabe: You can try the msp430 with a small set of assembly instructions. There is a package of example code in C and assembly. Also the datasheet examples in assembly.

Iron

@javawantabe... I went back to school afte 10 years out. My most used material from CS/Eng/Math is the material from the theoretical computing, algorithms and theoretical math. fwiw.

Iron

For learning Ethernet and USB, try Microchip 32 bit 500 series to 700 series microcontrollers.  They have free stacks for both that you can download and it makes it easier to learn.  Also the microcontrollers have a built in MAC address so you don't have to buy one.

Iron

The entire TI CORTEX M3 line is NRND

Wow. The ENTIRE M3 line? Where these Luminary parts?

for the record, I still write my start-up code in assembly.  Good place to start (no pun intended!  :)


You are a REAL programmer ;)

My first protocol was bit banging.  Couldn't afford that fancy hardware!

Iron

The entire TI CORTEX M3 line is NRND. They do not yet have M4 replacements. Judge for yourself.

I just switched to ST for M3 M4 -- will see how that goes.

Iron

@BillGioino:  That's encouraging.  Ok.  Have a serious one for everyone.  I'm in the process of designing a 2 year degree specific to embedded programming and design.  No, it's not a 4 year degree... I know.  What it does is cut out most of the B.S. that students have to go through to get to the meat.  Sad side note: Most CS students that I see in our state don't touch a word of code until their 3rd year!  So, the idea is to cut out that first 2 years and go straight for the gusto.  Question is: How attractive do you think that would be to employers?

My first design in as an FAE was a National Semiconductor dual-UART to a banking system.

@javawantabe  for the record, I still write my start-up code in assembly.  Good place to start (no pun intended!  :)

Iron

My first serail interface was a UART as well.

My first Protocol was the UART, of course. What a fun of buffers and timing THAT was!

Iron

Do you think we can use another OS instead of WINCE 6.0 for the S3C2440 microcontroller? I think our application does not requires a 32-bit microcontroller. Is there an OS that we can use???

What is your end product?

if you are trying to teach the level of the controller down to the hardware interface level, the assembly is a must.  Its the best way to show the data pathways, and how the internals of the part truly operate.  If you are approaching the microcontroler as a "black box", then it is not required.  In those cases, assembly would only be needed when requiring some special optimization.  At least that has been my experience so far

Very true, especially if you want to optimze your code. Even more important when you are running out of memory - write your own assembly optimized language routines

@Bill: Do you think we can use another OS instead of WINCE 6.0 for the S3C2440 microcontroller? I think our application does not requires a 32-bit microcontroller. Is there an OS that we can use???

 

Iron

@mharkins, @UART: Thanks...  Might have to increase those Assembly lessons.  First might want to get comfortable with it myself.

EdB_Vt: There was some serious issues with the DCO generating modulation frequency in the msp. :(

Iron

Another question I have is:  What does the employment field look like for students who are capable programmers and decent embedded system designer/programmers?

Very good. Build a few projects thayt you can use to show your expeirence. I suggest learning USB and Ethernet, as well as WiFi. Build some projects with these technologies and put them on your resume.

*You can throw the same C code (not asm)*

Iron

@gaun:  My ADCs and DACs are SPI running at 40MHz, My 32 bit counter is parallel

Iron

@javawantabe  if you are trying to teach the level of the controller down to the hardware interface level, the assembly is a must.  Its the best way to show the data pathways, and how the internals of the part truly operate.  If you are approaching the microcontroler as a "black box", then it is not required.  In those cases, assembly would only be needed when requiring some special optimization.  At least that has been my experience so far

Iron

@javawantabe: well, I still use ASM. The industry shuns people like us because you can throw the same code at Different Microcontrollers and get close to same results, but not with Assembly..

They should still be exposed to it however IMHO, because this is what reveals how good the Microcontroller will be to you right away.

Iron

Dear javatantabe

Understanding some assembly is essential for firmware engineer.

I recommend to teach at least printing some debug codes using inline commands.

Iron

Good point. I am also interested in that answer. We started looking at the TI Cortex-M and found some serious errata.

Ah, when TI bought Luminary and their Cortex-M micros, TI discuvered a number of quality problems with these Cortex-M's. It's unfair but the tech support people are bearing the brunt of the blame.

Another question I have is:  What does the employment field look like for students who are capable programmers and decent embedded system designer/programmers?

We look at each new product development from the angle of can it capitalize on previous work, does it need new capability.  THen always rescan the market to see what new parts are out there that might best fit the need.  That's why I've use Microchip, TI, Rensas, Samsung to name a few.

Iron

I give them a week on assembly right now, is that enough?

@Kentj: Hmm. For such high processing your SPI or I2C would be a big bottleneck. Why not just go multicore with the internal bus supplying the data?

Iron

I am a professor of Computer Science but trying to blend microcontrollers into the mix.  We have had great success with C but wondering how much Assembly is really needed?  Is it important for my students to know?

I will be using the PIC24 for Ethernet and USB.  The PIC32 has a lot of 24 bit and 32 bit numbers to work with.

Iron

@BillGiovino: What microcontroller manufacturers have the least  and the most number of silicon errata's? Seen some real bad errata's on the TI MSP430F5432a.

Good point. I am also interested in that answer. We started looking at the TI Cortex-M and found some serious errata.

Iron

LOL!  I meant to say, this was 4-5 years ago.  Sticky fingers!

Iron

It's hard to love a Microcontroller today, due to the rapidly changing technology and IF you dare to lock yourself in on one type, you can bring the house down!


A lesson learned -_-

Iron

@gaun, to tell you the truth, I don't remember now.  We didn't buy the processor directly, and partnered with the manufacturer of the radio module in creating the application layer interface so we could embed our code into the same chip.  THe actual processor was one of the TI affiliate chips specifically used in the celluar market.  ThHis was 4-58 years ago now.

Iron

@gaun:  By speeding up processing I'm reffering to all the simultaneous processes running.  The PIC32 runs at a nice 80MHZ and the PIC24, I belive runs at 70MHz.

Iron

@UART and Bill, I'd agree.  WHen TI first introduced the MSP430, I came across a couple of "non documented features" that I had to implement external hardware solutions for.  Later TI introduced internal Brown out circutry fixing the issue. 

Iron

@mharkins: What is the processor btw?

Iron

We use two 8 bit micros on a safety controller for a mechanical press.  One micro is an 8051 and the other is an HC11. Quite dated but requires too many resources to update.

Iron

@Bill: Actually yes, the past program we made had some troubles. The main application breaks some times and does not support as many task as we expected... That's why i don't want to use the same micro and operative system

Iron

with respect to speed, of course.

Iron

@gaun  We ended up purchasing a radio module, so I'm sure there were mutiple dies contained within, but yes, there was only one processor in the module that contained the rtos that ran the radio code, with our application code sitting on top.

Iron

@BillGiovino: What microcontroller manufacturers have the least  and the most number of silicon errata's? Seen some real bad errata's on the TI MSP430F5432a.

Iron

In lower voltages; yes, due to line noise. back then we weren't dealing with speeds that we're dealing with today, ntm, registers too. Of course it's almost a catch22 but if you weigh it all out I'd say yes.

Iron

@mharkins: You mean that the microcontroller and the radio core were in one single die?

Iron

UART: Nowandays these upcoming Microcontrollers have better stability, more features to whereas you don't have to alternate.

So, you are saying that the microcontrollers being made TODAY are more stable than MCUs made six years ago?

I usually go risc-core with proprietary slaves, for either number crunching, packaging, or Giga handling.

Iron

I have not yet decided on wich cores I will be using, I am building a high frequency sensor system.

First pass of embedding a cellular radio in a product had seprate processor for radio and application.  Later we embedded our application code into the radio core (major cost reduction).   In this case they were both TI parts.

Iron

UART: I try and stay close to Linux as possible, which is why I prefer to work on on a FRU's core, including background operations, rather than the Human-Interface Applets...

for that reason.

So, are you using embedded linux?

@Kentj: To speed up processing how does using just the hardware multiplier on the micro fare?

Iron

For those of you using more than one microcontroller in your design - can you tell me, what microcontrollers are you using and what are you making with them - what is your system?

@gaun,  usually it would be i2c or spi, yes.  In some cases only a binary return is required (something is done, or a state has changed).

Iron

@Bill: I try and stay close to Linux as possible, which is why I prefer to work on on a FRU's core, including background operations, rather than the Human-Interface Applets...

for that reason.

Iron

lleiva: I used 6 Atmel microcrontrollers in a design. I am working now in a complex project with more than 20 ARM microcontrollers

Wow. Can I ask, what are you building?

@Bill: I have not yet, however; I am currently considering it for one of my projects right now.

I will be using more than one microcontroller in my design now.  It will both simplify and speed up the processing in my design.

Iron

@lleiva  20 ARMs on the same board?  Wow.  That's some processing power!

Iron

@mharkins:  Is the dataset which you supply to the slave processor to process is through the regular interfaces like UART, SPI or I2c?

Iron

You beat me to it & I agree as well.

Iron

I've working in this company about 2 years. I've done to many different tasks, so I have not much expirience on developing new products. Now we're development a new mother board for all the products we sell... We´re using a S3C2440 microcontroller and WINCE 6.0 as operative system.

I think we can use a better resources (micro and OS) but I don't know what kind micro and OS can I suggest.... Any ideas of where can I start looking at to see if there are better resources we can use? I mean what kind of micro and operative system could be a better from the ones we're using now?

Interesting. If you are using WinCE, you definitely need a 32-bit, which you are using with the S3C2440. Make sure you are maxed out in your memory. Are tou having performance problems with that board? is the UI lagging? You would probably be better served with a main 32-bit and a 16-bit to do the user interface.

I used 6 Atmel microcrontrollers in a design. I am working now in a complex project with more than 20 ARM microcontrollers

Iron

@UART, I agree.  THe only exception I've ran into is when you have a process intensive sub task that is best delegated off to a slave processor to handle, so your main processor can focus on the top level applicaton.  Don't run into it as much now days, but I can still see it happening.

Iron

Nowandays these upcoming Microcontrollers have better stability, more features to whereas you don't have to alternate.

Iron

@Bill: I would love to, but no, not any more.

Iron

Not currently, but have in the past.

Iron

I wanted to say debugger

Iron

Anyone using more than one microcontrolelr in your design?

@EdB_Vt: Yes would really like that.

Iron

Alterra did a wonderful job with them though.

Iron

I would like to be discussed the in circuit debegger features of microcontrollers. Do they all have it?

Iron

The soft core microcontrollers for FPGAs could be a whole week, certainly more than one 30-minute presentation. Include soft and hard core processors in FPGAs. Advantages of each. Comparison of those to microcontrollers, and best applications for each.

Iron

I should've read the whole question. :P

Iron

@BillGiovino: would like to be discussed.

Iron

@BillGiovino: Soft core microcontrollers for FPGA's.

Iron

@UART, I basically agree with you, but the question was which single one.  If I were to teach with the idea of covering as much ground in the least time, I'd start with 16 bit.  There isn't a lot of architectual differences between 16 and 8, while there is between them and 32.

Iron

Does anyone feel that there was more material I could have covered this week? What other topics would you have liked to have seen discussed?

On 32 bit "successful" architectures: IBM System/360 and its 32-bit successors (loosely the base of the intel 32 bit family), the Intel IA-32 32-bit version of the x86 architecture, the DEC VAX, the Motorola 68k, and the 32-bit versions of the ARM, SPARC, MIPS, PowerPC and PA-RISC architectures. 32-bit instruction set architectures used for embedded computing include the 68k and ColdFire, x86, ARM, MIPS, PowerPC, and Infineon TriCore architectures. Seems like more than six.

I'm a little confused. I've working in this company about 2 years. I've done to many different tasks, so I have not much expirience on developing new products. Now we're development a new mother board for all the products we sell... We´re using a S3C2440 microcontroller and WINCE 6.0 as operative system.

I think we can use a better resources (micro and OS) but I don't know what kind micro and OS can I suggest.... Any ideas of where can I start looking at to see if there are better resources we can use? I mean what kind of micro and operative system could be a better from the ones we're using now?

Any comment would be helpful =)...


P.D. Sorry if my english is not so good. My native lenguage is Spanish

Iron

UART: 8&16 together for more depth of understandingI

I couldn't agree more!

Intel might beg to differ with you on the x86 atom in embedded designs.

The Atom is relatively new. It is still cutting it's tetth in the industry, so it may be too early to call it a success or not. Especially when Intel has a history of cutting loose architectures that aren't successful quickly.

I started off on 8-bit, and found it lovely, then moved to 16 bit. This helped me understand the direction the architecture was going. I would probably recommend both: 8&16 together for more depth of understanding IMHO.

Iron

For those checking out ARM for the first time, be aware that there are multiple ARM cores, each targeted for different applications. Even the ARM Cortex core has Cortex-A, Cortex-R, and Cortex-M variations. (note the "A" "R" "M" marketing slant).

Also, the definition of Embedded can cause discussions that would drain more than one keg. Large communications infrastructure and military systems are considered embedded, and you won't find most of the devices we are discussing. 

Iron

PowerPC are used in automotive Applications, Network Routers and Switches and so on...

Iron

@BillGiovino: PPC is used in a lot of set top boxes no? There are PPC softcores for Xilinx too.

Iron

Microcontrollers or EmbSys, I didn't know it was a difference. Microcontrollers represent EmbeddedSystems, so I thought. Therefore I suppose Embedded Systems would be the core curriculum, and from there you learn Microcontrollers, right?

Well, Embedded Systems is basically anything that is NOT user-programmable. So a PC, which is very user-programmable, is not an embedded system. Microcontrollers are used in embedded systems.

@drw36 @Alaskaman66: Have a look at Digital Signal Processors and Getting Started with DSP's. Those sections are written by analog devices and is very interesting.

Iron

I guess that suffices...

OK.

Iron

Intel might beg to differ with you on the x86 atom in embedded designs.

Of course, I cut my teeth on 4-bit parts, so what do I know!  LOL

Iron

@UART, they're basic enough to get your hands dirty without the complexities of larger cores, yet have the advantages over the 8-bit parts of better (and usually more) peripherals.

Iron

You are right - PowerPC is anotheer successful 32-bit, as is x86. Although neither of those are using in embedded.

live chat somewhat laggy today

Sorry about that, it's busy in here.

I know it's popular, but why start @16?

Iron

@gaun - thanks. PDF online makes sense since it does appear to be out of print.

Iron
live chat somewhat laggy today
Iron

I would also use 16-bit to teach the basics.

@mHarkins: Why 16?

Iron

Over 200 unique 32-bit architectures introduced, only 6 successful what are the six

Ah, off the top of my head, 68K, Transputer, 3 Renesas architectures, ARM, MIPS

@UART I thin cghaba was asking which architecture would be best to use to teach embedded systems.  From my point of view, I'd use 16 bit parts to teach the basics.

Iron

@Alaskaman66: http://www.analog.com/en/content/scientist_engineers_guide/fca.html

Iron
better to know some more than 6 :-)but 200! this really alot
Iron

@BILL: Will they be using graphene for EmbeddedSystems Microcontrollers?

Iron

@Alaskaman66 - Heres the ISBN 978-0750674447 for the 2002 edition

Iron

@cghaba: Microcontrollers or EmbSys, I didn't know it was a difference. Microcontrollers represent EmbeddedSystems, so I thought. Therefore I suppose Embedded Systems would be the core curriculum, and from there you learn Microcontrollers, right?

Iron
"Over 200 unique 32-bit architectures introduced, only 6 successful"
 
What are the six?
Iron

@Alaskaman66 - I found it on Amazon

Iron

Sherlock: 8051 or cal 51 serial gives me so much fun. I still use it to solve some real tech problem quickly till now.

"till now" - are you using something else?

I think the "Internet of Things" putting things like light swiitches, thermostats, smoke alarms, etc.  will push a number of traditionally 8 bit implementations to 16 or 32 bits because of the complicated communication stacks like Zig-Bee.

Gaun - I couldn't locate the reference you mentioned on DSP for engineers and scientists, but I did find a tutorial on the Analog Devices website called "Mixed Signal and DSP Design Techniques."  Thanks

Very useful presentation. No single solution satisfies all people!

Thank you Bill and Jenn, and DigiKey for supporting it.

Iron

Thank you Bil and Jinnifer for a great Presentation and fedback on the posting.

Iron

From yesterday, the PIC24 does not have built in Ethernet but works very well with the ENC624J600 PHY also from Microchip.  The ENC624J600 has a built in buffer for TX and RX and works with SPI or parallel interface.  Microchip has examples of using the PIC24 in their Ethernet Stack. And FreeRTOS has support for the PIC24 as well.

Iron

Digi-Key has additional resources that you can look at when today's chat is finished.

From the academic point of view, which architecture is better to teach students microcontrollers or embedded systems?

Iron

@Bill, I do agree; I see that trend as well. But what about GRAPHENE when it debuts?

Iron

Thanks so much, I appreciate the feedback. I'm very hapy you all enjoyed this week!

Was taking a microcontroller class this week and wasn't able to see your other presentations.  I did get to see today's in its entirity.  VERY much looking forward to seeing the other ones!  Stuff like this is worth paying for.  Thanks for the freebie ;)

Iron

Now companies are switching to the arm cortex for  low power bluetooth and microcontroller all things integrated. See nordic bluetooth solutions. Also TI is going that way.

Yes, that seems to be the direction of things.

Bill thanks for a well structured presentation the series have been awesome

We really, Really appreciate those who are willing to share their industry-tested knowledge to us, and Digikey for making it possible. THANKS, truly.

Iron

Excellent and very informative!

 

Iron
Thank you alot Bill and Jennifer- very nice presentation!
Iron

Thank you very much Jennifer and Bill.

Iron

Thanks to Bill, Jennifer and DigiKey

Iron

Great lecture series, great week. Thank you Bill.

 

Iron

Thank you Design News and Digikey

Iron

Thanks a lot William A.

Iron

Thanks for this series!!!!  Great!

Iron

Bill, another well done presentation.

Thanks much.

 

Iron

Thanks, enjoyed the series.

Iron

Thanks, great presentation all wek

Iron

Thank you Bil!! excellent presentation.

Thank you Jen.

Iron

Thank´s Bill... Great presentations this week =)...

 

Iron

Thanks Bill & Jennifer & Digi-Key

Iron

Thank you very much Jennifer and Bill, great and useful information.

Iron

AWESOME Bill, Thanks!!!

Iron

Thank you also Jennifer

Iron

@GBoos Now companies are switching to the arm cortex for  low power bluetooth and microcontroller all things integrated. See nordic bluetooth solutions. Also TI is going that way.

Iron

Thank you for a great week of sessions.!!!

Thank you for today's and previous days presentations Bill!

Iron

8051 or cal 51 serial gives me so much fun. I still use it to solve some real tech problem quickly till now.

Iron

Thanks Bill - a great series of presentations.

 

 

Iron

Thanks, they were great presentations

THANKS BILL; GREAT WEEK!

Iron

This was an excellent series of presentations. Thanks.

Iron

Thanks Bill.  Great presentation.

Iron

A number of cortex M parts have bit banding (addresses access a single bit) or special output registers that only set or clear bits  in the I/O port instead of dedicated instructions

GBoos@ I strongly agree with you about the 8051.

Iron
this a difference WindRivers Linux is Rt Linux. Another need patches.
Iron

Bit banding on stellaris ARM

I love the 8051 because its so simple to use and interrupts can be serviced in one cycle - just switch the Register-Bank.

There are also highly integrated types.

Look at the market of Low Power RF Communication (like in the ISM Band (315, 434, 868, 915MHz),ZigBee, Bluetooth, ...

Most of the used Cores are 8051.

Iron

What is Real time linux? Where can we download it if its free?

Iron

Agreed, I am a huge LINUX user and it is great for embeded systems

 

Embedded linux ..is cool

Iron

msp430 has a good culture with their launchpad.

Iron

Silabs 8051F120, 100MHZ, single cycle ....

@donnb - think about bottled water outside of US...

Iron

We still use 8051's from Atmel and Infineon. Mainly because of a lot of legacy code.

Iron

Water is not a good example. Almost all bottled water comes from a city water supply (ie tap water).

People buy it because they don't know any better.

Iron

nice pic for slide 11 :)  and, good list of caveats about "free", lawyers, etc.

@DaveWR   Thank you, but I'm an ol' guy.  I like 40's to 60's trucks (even though I'm rebuilding an '80 Bronco) and I already have new vehicles for dating the pretty girls.  (grin)

Tod date, out of all the products I've worked on, only one used an RTOS.  And that one we needed to write our own USB driver for.  That product was embedding our application code into a cellular radio.

Iron

agreed, Why do you say only 6?

@MazianLab, is that hubby or HOBBY ?

–Over 200 unique 32-bit architectures introduced, only 6 successful
 
What are the six, in your opinion?
 

Slide #9, which 6?

 

Iron

I strongly agree with the development tools first and availability of parts in a timely manner.

Iron

Dev boards should be used to determine software library support for peripherals, like complex communications peripherals (USB, Ethernet, graphic display). Better to check things out with multiple dev boards (in same vendor's family) than wait until your PCB is fabricated.

Iron

My best hubby was programming with 8 bit assembly language.

Iron

8 bit is great to use with assembly. I am working with a 32 bit now and using the assembly to understand it and write it in C.

No one?  LOL!  That's a pretty broad statement!  Many a routine can benefit from assy.

Iron

Development Tools are the !st important part of design. I think so.

Iron

I agree with starting with development tools, but lead time in volume is a major factor in time to market.  I have had vendor lead times be longer than my schedule for development.

And, a plug for Digikey, if they cannot get you prototype quantities off the shelf, that is a red flag.

Iron

Development Tools are the most important part of design.

Iron

@Joe: I have a 94 F150 Longbox. Will that do?

Iron

I find that each one has there place, simply depends on what you are working on.

*****    Slide 3   ********

Iron

Slide 2.   (I want that pickup in the background of the dog picture!!!)   :)

Looks like I'm a 32-bit person... :)

Iron

Audio worked first time......

Iron

Audio is loud and clear...

Iron

Here we go, audio is up!! 

Iron

Greetings from Phoenix AZ

Iron

Hello from about-to-be-snowed-on SE Lake Simcoe area of Ontario.

Iron

Good Morning everybody from sunny Valdez - 26 Deg...

Hello from cloudy and cold Cleveland Ohio..home of Rockwell Automations Advanced Technology Lab.

Hello from Greensboro, NC

Iron

hello from melbouurne australia

Hello from Syracuse.  I am glad they archive since this is the first day this week I could join in real time.

Iron

Hey, folks.  Greetings again from Colorado Springs, CO.

 

Iron

Good morning.  I finally was able to connect, but then again the audio has started yet. 8^)

Iron

Good afternoon from eastern Mass. Nice 38 degrees out and sunny.

Iron

Good evening from Iasi. Romania

Iron

It's a nice, balmy 47º F here in Boston, MA. Warm for this time of year.

Hello from Longmont, CO

Iron

Hello from Binghamton, NY

Iron

Hello from North Dakota!

 

Iron

Greetings from snowy Minnesota

 

It is very wet and chilly here in Huntsville, Al.  I have enjoyed the presentation, it has been full of information.  Good Presentation, thanks.

Iron

Hi everyone, from Tom

Iron

Hi everybody from Guadalajara! it's sunny, friday and almost ready for some beverages  :)

 

Iron

Greetings from Chicago!

Iron

Good Morning from Sunny San Jose, CA

Iron

Hi from rainy Lynn Haven, FL

Iron

Hello from Waterloo, ON, Canada

Greetings from Vermont

Iron

Good morning from Richmond, TX

Iron

Good Morning from Portland Oregon

Iron

Good morning from Scottsdale AZ

Iron

Good morning from Mobile, AL

Love the Cats and Dogs! # 1 !

Iron

GOOD MORNING from SUNNY (for now) Boston, TGIF and there's a Starbucks!

Iron

Good "Friday" morning, all, from Colorado Springs, CO

Iron

Not friday here yet, but I get the drift.

Iron

I think you mean "TGIS" - Thank God it's Starbucks'  ;)



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