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good insights

thank you.

Iron

good seminar, and one more to go.

Iron

Good review -  a bit of a feeling of deja vous all over again, but such is the nature in comparing types and families of architectures.  The presentation also jogged a couple issues for review in an upcoming design which is completely worth the time to review this presentation!

Ill have to finish this later

 

Hi all!

Could anyone provide some references on microcontrollers ?

either introductory or advanced. Thanks with respect.

I was unable to keep up with the lectures but will keep the valuable conversations.

Today brought to you by Digi-Key!

Well, Thank you all for attending today's Continuing Education Series course on Selecting a 16-bit Microcontroller. Be sure to come back tomorrow for a final wrapup of this week's events and some final conclusions for Microcontrollers and System Considerations. Thanks Again and see you all tomorrow!

Just chilling to see if there is anything else to be asked or answered.

What aspect are you checking about being back up, Bill?

Anything else you want to ask?

I reloaded the page and it is working. So either the time elapsed or the reload retriggered the fetch.

Archive auio is usually up immediately after the audio portion of the session.

Iron

Archive audio isn't working yet. How long does it take to render the audio from today's session and have it for streaming ?

In one project - replacing USB by SPI-Ethernet bridge (Micrel's one) on AVR based board.
Iron

Is anyone using a language other than C to program your microcontrollers?

Mark, I have always felt that if you understand a core's assembly language, then you can program it in C more efficiently.

I did  a Z80 ap 20 years ago that used the "second register set" and the NMI to do a software UART - the NMI pin was tied to a spare timer output. It used about 25% of the processor and saved adding an interface chip.

@mark.browne: We have to do the same thing now in TI launchpad series. We use the timer and an outmod register to output an appropriate set reset value wrt to the bit value.

Iron

Assy - so do I. I had to convert a system out of C as it outgrew it's ROM. It taught me a lot about how C does things and stepped up my assembly languge game to the next level. C is really very pretty assembly languge.

Who's building a battery-powered application?

Embedded control systems / battery powered portable weigh scales and chassis alignment equipment.

Ah, yeah Mark. Remember, I think in assembly language!

High speed LCR meter.

Iron

C does this aoutmatically - Macros libraries and give a uniform access method the reduces stack abuse.

What are the applications that you all are building now?

A more intricate form of stack transfer is to use the stack as a volitle place to put local data for a subroutine. Adressing of this data is then relative tothe stack pointer. THis can be done local to a subroutine and/or a way to pass data to a subroutine.

If you do this, make sure you understand your software and you do not end up popping someone else's data off the stack. You don't want a stack imbalance.

If you are doing 16-bit processing and lots of serial I/O, the MSP430 will probably be a better performer for you than the AVR.

Guan: Re saving the stack while entering and leaving the ISR.. Yes. I believe that was what Bill was emphasizing..

Bill, what you think about performance ratio between MSP430 and AVR?

Both are register-based architectures. The AVR is 8-bit and the MSP430 is 16-bit. The AVR seems to be more forgiving when it comes to power supply. Both have been around for a very long time.

We using RS485 too, as well as USB and Ethernet.
Iron

@ucschmidt Glad I was able to help! I strongly recommend getting on LinkedIn. Also, check out the inventory and the development boards at Digi-Key.

When we need radio we use DIGI zigbee - works well with the 485 mulit-drop network.

@BillGiovino: I am doing bluetooth using the PAN1323 ETU bluetooth module.

Iron
Bill, what you think about performance ratio between MSP430 and AVR?
Iron

@Bill

  Thanks for the presentations this week. I now understand many things that I was not even aware of. I especially appreciate that you answer the questions on line so that those that do not have Linkedin can benefit...

Iron

What sort of embedded networking are you all using? Ethernet, USB, CAN, UART, etc?

I did  a Z80 ap 20 years ago that used the "second register set" and the NMI to do a software UART - the NMI pin was tied to a spare timer output. It used about 25% of the processor and saved adding an interface chip.

Now that is interesting. Always glad to hear a Z80 story.

I have to depart thank you for an awesome presentation

I did  a Z80 ap 20 years ago that used the "second register set" and the NMI to do a software UART - the NMI pin was tied to a spare timer output. It used about 25% of the processor and saved adding an interface chip.

Ah forgot to add the higher priority :|

Iron

There it goes.  I am thinking of adding the PIC24 to my project now to offload Ethernet and USB from the PIC32 due to the length of time required to communicate with the ADCs, DACs, and counter.

Interesting!

Also you can continue to receive interrupts inside an interrupt handler. You can enable or disable this atleast in the msp430.

Yes, that is when we have nested interrupts. While in an ISR, another interrupt will be acknowledges ONLY if it is a higher priority interrupt than the currect interrupt routine.

Also you can continue to receive interrupts inside an interrupt handler. You can enable or disable this atleast in the msp430.

Iron

Then there is no way that the mcu is 'deaf' when doing this. An interrupt at that point would simply do the interrupt house keeping and jump to the handler.

But during the interrupt stack push/pop hardware processing, other interrupts are ignored until AFTER the stack operation is finished.

@bill - it was alaskaman66 that was worried that the IRQ was "deaf" - I know how it works and am not worried about that.

@Mark, ah, I do not want to interfere in anyone's love affair!

Wouldn't the MCU ignore the UART during a stack transfer operation, say if it were returning from a previous ISR?

Duing interrupt processing, peripherals continue to operate, so the UART would continue to function during an ISR

There it goes.  I am thinking of adding the PIC24 to my project now to offload Ethernet and USB from the PIC32 due to the length of time required to communicate with the ADCs, DACs, and counter.

Iron

@mark.browne : Then there is no way that the mcu is 'deaf' when doing this. An interrupt at that point would simply do the interrupt house keeping and jump to the handler.

Iron

Bill - you have not tempted me to 16 bit away from my love afair with arm.

Sorry. 

I was working with the MC6832 for the DDIN units some time ago when I discovered that 32-bit was more challenging. So I went back to 16-bit and have been there ever since.

That's a common reason for going back to 16-bits.

A more intricate form of stack transfer is to use the stack as a volitle place to put local data for a subroutine. Adressing of this data is then relative tothe stack pointer. THis can be done local to a subroutine and/or a way to pass data to a subroutine.

I am taking this to mean - stack transfer = push/pop.

 

@Alaskaman66: When you mean stack transfer operation do you mean saving the state in the stack while processing an interrupt?

Iron

@Bill: I was working with the MC6832 for the DDIN units some time ago when I discovered that 32-bit was more challenging. So I went back to 16-bit and have been there ever since.

Iron

Wouldn't the MCU ignore the UART during a stack transfer operation, say if it were returning from a previous ISR?

UART.. Yes, but some interrupts may be more process critical than time critical. For example, a high-high alarm in a tank.

@BillGiovino: Isn't clearing the interrupt flag a sort of handshaking?

Iron

freescale has 8 bit to 32 bit pin compatable parts.

Iron

Bill, instead of a one time critical interrupt, how about a "smart interrupt" that requires some sort of handshaking to verify the interrupt was received and processed?

That sounds more like a UART function, which has Tx/Rx handshaking.

Looking at the MSP430

Iron

@Alaskaman, wouldn't that contribute to lagging?

Iron
I am impressed, so may be look on MSP430 series
Iron

Moved to a Freescale S12, from 8051, for speed, internal flash and RAM. S12 because I was already familiar with HC11 environment.

Iron

@bill: Codecs (wdog triggers)

Iron

Bill, instead of a one time critical interrupt, how about a "smart interrupt" that requires some sort of handshaking to verify the interrupt was received and processed?

For 16 bit I have usd the PIC24.

 

Iron

@bill: DIN Screen freezes

Iron

I use 8 and 16 bit. 16 bit when more processing power needed, more Flash, ... For example the electric metering device. 

 

Iron

I use both; 8-bit for generic DSP (no time constraints), 16-bit for encryption/applets

Iron

(32-bit crashes) ... sigh, so very true. -UART

@UART, can you give me some more details on the 32-bit crashes you have seen?

Atmel, Philips(not new design)

Iron

QUESTION: Have any of you moved from an 8-bit microcontroller to a 16-bit, and why?

QUESTION: Can you tell me what 16-bit microcontrollers you all are using?

For selecting any processor, Digi-Key is an excellent source with their product lookup tables which have almost everything you could want selectable.

Iron

It sounds like the MCU is essentially deaf to the outside world during stack transfers. Is there any way to capture critical interrupts that may fall into that window?

No, which is why that interrupt overhead during stack transfers is such an important selection criteria.You've got to read the datasheet to get the actual figures. The Renesas RL78 I believe is pretty fast in the interrupt latency department.

Check out Digi-Key's inventory of Infineon C166 devices, they sell a lot of them. C166 is very high performance.

Bill, I'm in the process of choosing a Micro for a project that needs 512MB of FLASH for Hughe tables. So I'm using an external SPI Flash. I need minimum 4KRAM to be able to write to the flash. But the application does not require much processing (no math, only two comunication links)... I had already chosen the Frescale ARM cortex M0.. But Now I'm wandering if I have made the right decision... Any comments?

You mught want to look at some of the larger 16-bit Flash micros. The Infineon C166/XC166 16-bit family has some devices with more than 512KBytes Flash, and special instructions for lookup tables. You may be able to do the whole thing on one chip, no SPI memory.

@Bill (32-bit crashes) ... sigh, so very true.

Iron

One issue not covered here is that for the developer, going from an 8 bit architecture to 32 bit involves a huge learning curve. The 32 bit micros have a staggering amount of registers and peripherals compared to an 8 bitter!

True, there is a steeper learning curve in using a 32-bit. Also, many 32-bit MCUs have protected memory modes. If you are not familiar with these modes, your code can suddenly stop working and you won't know why unless you RTFM.

It sounds like the MCU is essentially deaf to the outside world during stack transfers. Is there any way to capture critical interrupts that may fall into that window?

could you mention some RTOS for 16bit microcontrollers?

CMX and ucos come to mind. If you want to run a full-blown RTOS, go 32-bit.

Can you explain to me how shadow register work as far as latency?

Iron

Bill, I'm in the process of choosing a Micro for a project that needs 512MB of FLASH for Hughe tables. So I'm using an external SPI Flash. I need minimum 4KRAM to be able to write to the flash. But the application does not require much processing (no math, only two comunication links)... I had already chosen the Frescale ARM cortex M0.. But Now I'm wandering if I have made the right decision... Any comments? 

 

Iron

One issue not covered here is that for the developer, going from an 8 bit architecture to 32 bit involves a huge learning curve. The 32 bit micros have a staggering amount of registers and peripherals compared to an 8 bitter!

Iron

Is it efficient to use external RAM or external clock with 16-bits?

You can use an external clock. But using external RAM on a microcontrolelr system will slow down your system, and you will also waste I/O pins for the external buses.

what are the differences between register based and acumulated based  microcontrollers? whats the impact on overall performance?

Well, register-based are going to be higher performance than accumulator-based becasue you can do more work in less insrtuctions. That also means more compact code.

Reg-ster-based means you have eight or more REGISTERS in teh core, any of which can be used as destination registers for arithmetic operations. This is, of course, assembly language, which is important to understand if you want to understand the microcontroller, even if you are programming in C.

What's accumulated based?

Accumulator based is when the microcontroller's core architecture has only one core register, called an ACCUMULATOR, that is the ONLY destination register for any arithmetic operation.

Thank you, Very interresting

Thanks Bill. This has been very illuminating.

thank you Bill -nice presentation

Iron

Thanks to everyone who liked today's presentation.

Give me a sec to look through your questions...

ENERGY MICRO - EFM32TG110, 32-bit Cortex-M3, 150uA/MHz at 32Mhz Max ........

Thank you Design News and Digi-Key

Iron

Thanks Bill and Jennifer.

Iron

Another good one , Bill.

Thanks much.

 

Iron

Thanks Bill & Jennifer & Digi-Key

Iron

Looking forward for the next lecture...

Iron

Thank you, Very good presentation

Iron

Thank you Jennifer and Bill

 

Iron

Thanks willian A. see you tomorrow.

Iron

Thanks Bill, Jenifer, et.tal

 

Iron

Thanks Bill and Jennifer

Iron

could you mention some RTOS for 16bit microcontrollers?

Iron

Thank you....I missed the beginning, I'll go back and check it, now.

Iron

Q: Is it efficient to use external RAM or external clock with 16-bits?

Iron

William, Thanks again for the presentations.

Iron

what means iron user's type?

Iron

I have audio....try reloading the page

 

Iron

8  bit < resolution ? I usually use 8 bit. The one project where it was more had dual processor with 8051 and PIC 14 bit A2D conversion.

Iron

Yes, I use 12 and 16bit ADC's. 16 bit one, only on a 16bit micro.

Iron

I need 14 bit A/D  or better, 12 is not acceptable

 

Iron

Previously got by with 12 bit ADCs in measuring sensor data. System requirements now require 16 bit performance. Find we're having to go to external ADCs to meet performance requirements.

Silver

I used the 14-Bit ADC of the MSP430P325 in a Patient monitoring System.

Iron

experienced mostly 16 bit ADC spreviously

Iron

no question 16bit uC is more efficient for 12 bits ADCs. Still using 8 bits uC (cost and area reasons)

 

do alot of 12 bit data movement; yes 16 bit is more efficient than 8 bit.

Almost in all cases: 8 bits <ADC < 16bits 

Iron

Freescale has one 8-Bit-Series (HC08 or S08) which is Pin-compatible to a 32-Bit Series (Coldfire V1).

Iron

I'm using 24 bit ADCs and a 32 bit counter.  That's why I went to 32 bit microcontroller.

Iron

There are 10 bit ADCs on the PIC I'm using, but we're not using the ADCs

Iron

I use 12 bit and use the 8 bit transfer SPI, not a problem so far!

Iron

I use 10 and 12 bit A/D in most my products.  No issues in dealing with it.

Iron

ADC 12  bit yes. 10 bit as well.

Iron

Yes to 10+ bits, using Cortex-M

Iron

what are the differences between register based and acumulated based  microcontrollers? whats the impact on overall performance?

Iron

Q: What's accumulated base?

Iron

surprized you didn't mention ARM's thumb mode....(?)

Several ugly solder bridges on that pic for slide 6 :-)

Iron

Flash 11.5 works.  I made the mistake of installing the update this morning.  Version 11.6 fails in Firefox, version 11.5 works in IE (gack).

Iron

Downloading the audio would also make it much easier for alot of us who listen in after the fact

program told me one time, he didn't care what the data path was, if the registers are 16 or 32 then, for him, it is a 16 or 32 processor.

audio works ok here with flash 11.5

Iron

Don't install the latest flash update (11.6.602.168); it breaks the player, again.

Iron

Audio situation is getting worse.... need muliple reloads and logins... usually miss the first 3 minutes. This is new for this week.

Iron

You really have to stop using clunky technology that is not bullet proof. Flash is not the way to do these sessions.

Iron

Aduio is good and strong!

Does anyone know what is up with the other UBM, University EE .com ?

Iron

Audio is loud and clear!

Iron

@BillGiovino-Yes 4 inches of snow.  Prediction was for chance of rain.

Iron

hello from melbourne australia

 

Good afternoon from couldy and COLD Toronto

Iron

@Alaskaman66 next class---> File Systems in Real-Time Embedded Applications  

MONDAY, MARCH 4 - FRIDAY, MARCH 8

Good evening from Iasi, Romania

Iron

@Alaskaman66:  the next course is always on the page after your login just below this weeks courses.  The next group will show up in two weeks when the next class starts.

Iron

I hear IRON means Information Radio Online Network and maybe.

What does GOLD mean?

Iron

Good afternoon from Greensboro, NC

Iron

Any idea what the next course will be? Jennifer?

Albuquerque - Four Inches of Snow???????

Good afternoon from upstate New York.

 

Iron

Good afternoon from NASA in Greenbelt

Good Morning from sunny Valdez!

Good morning everyone from CA

Iron

Hello from Albuquerque--four inches of snow on the ground which will be gone this afternoon (predicted high of 48 F ).

Iron

good morning everyone

Iron

oops - meant will be live in 18 minutes!

Welcome, everyone - just getting set up over here. Will be living in 18 minutes!

 

Cold. No snow.... yet.

Iron

good afternoon, everyone

Iron

Hey @MikeH, how's the weather down in Bing? Syracuse is snowy/cold.

Hello from Binghamton, NY.

Iron

Hello from Longmont, CO

Iron

@DaveWR - actually, chocolate chip cookies today.  {I had to bake something to celebrate the ice storm!!}  (grin)

Hello from Waterloo, ON, Canada

@Joe: You probably slopped some Cherry Pie on your keyboard. lol

Iron

Posts seem to be skipping a lot lately and they don't show up later like they used to.

Iron

Howdy folks!  :)   (First post didn't make it.)

@Magallanes -- Y muy buenos dias de Canada senor. bienvenidos  ;-)

Iron

@Jennifer Campbell : I downloaded slides just fine.

Buenos días desde Chihuahua, Mexico =)...

It's always nice to take this classes. Regards everyone....

Iron

8080 was 8 bit.

8086 onwards were 16 bit (80286, 80286)

The IA-32 instruction set was introduced in the Intel 80386 microprocessor in 1986

See wikipedia

Iron

Hello from Edmonton, AB

Iron

as in 8086, 8080, 186, 286, 386 maybe?

Iron

Hello from Valladolid, Castilla y Leon, Spain

Iron

@rruther2: Possibly the Ethernet and USB PHYs

Iron

Actually Windows XP (32 bit) does have a 16 bit component to it if that is what you mean. It talks to older programs and drivers.

In the same way, Windows Vista 64 bit etc. has a 32 bit component to talk to 32 bit programs and drivers.

 

Iron

are any parts of gateways XP 16 bit?

Iron

My XP is 16 bit. TRUE or false?

Iron

Good afternoon from snowy St. Louis!

Iron

hello from great weather / Atlanta

Iron

greetings from Raleigh, NC

Iron

Hello all from Richmond, TX

Iron

@scott -- egualmente. ;-)

Iron

Morning from Portland Oregon

Iron

bitbanger55 - are you able to download today's slide deck?

Hello from Lynn Haven, FL.

Iron

Still see white everywhere. Freeeeezing cold.

Iron

Hunkering down for another frosty day in Chicago.

 

Iron

Good afternoon from eastern Mass. Another freezing day!

Iron

Hi everyone, good morning!

Iron

Hello again from cold cloudy SE Lake Simcoe area of Ontario Canada.

It will be interesting to see the rationale for using 16 bit... :-)

Iron

Hello from Cold & Sunny San Jose, CA.

It's 37°F and a High of 60°F

Iron

Hello from snowy Colorado Springs, CO, where we welcome all the moisture we can get !!!!

Iron

Hello from Scottsdale AZ

Iron

Good Morning from SUNNY Boston; for Now!  More Snow this weekend....

Iron

I'm early today!!!  yea

 

Iron

For folks who want to listen to archived webcasts on the go, several resources mentioned in chat yesterday.

@justheretolearn: I'm headed your way tomorrow. A week of vacation in Gulf Shores, including a respite from Milwaukee's winter weather.

Iron

Good Morning from Mobile, AL

Hello from Millington, Michigan

Iron

Looking for slides to download .

This forum/curriculum is a great service. Keep it up.



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