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Thanks Fred...great presentation!

Iron

Another great presentation. Thanks Fred.

Iron

I've used USB integrated into the microcontroller (Freescale JM128).

Iron

Have used RS-232, I2C and SPI. I like SPI because its higher bandwidth.

Iron

Revieiwng archived class.

Iron

Hello from Beaverton, Oregon

Iron

hello from Edmonton, Alberta

Iron

@78RPM, we're following each other around the past few days for these sessions.

Better late than never.

Iron

catching up on archived classes

Platinum

very good info - nice work

Iron

Atmel is my preference

for working on new projects so the bootloader for this would be a great resource

 

 

I like the internal design option

Looking forward to another interesting day of learning

Great presentation. Fred

Iron

Thank you for having this series

Iron

I tend to use RS232 for debug but given the choice between I2C and SPI for peripherals I generally prefer I2C as you dont have to use seperate slave select lines. I also find that I2C is more standardised between devices whereas I have run into incompatibilities with SPI.

Iron

Thanks for helping this old guy chatch up.

Iron

thanks Fred, another good session

Iron

@Fred YUP!  I used to work in Spring Hill.  Sometimes we'd have to visit the AFB in Tullahoma, which isn't too far away from your home.  You were also nice and close to Jack Daniel's...  :D

Iron

@Lawson:  Then you know where Fayetteville is.. That's where I'm from..

Blogger

Thanks Fred, et.al.

Iron

@Fred Awesome! I used to live in Nashville and I miss that Southern drawl!

Iron

Looks like I've covered all of the questions.  Again, thanks to all of you for tuning in.. 

Blogger

@miket: What you have suggested is another way to program a micro, which doesn't fill the definition of a bootloader.

Blogger

@FRED  OK on two chip solution.  Saving SW development time vs. adding a couple of dollars for HW can be a good trade off in low quantity designs.

Iron

@Lawson: Thanks. "See" y'all tumorra:-)

Blogger

@JeffM... I use Kicad with Windows XP. The release that I am using is a year old. There should be a major update soon. Hoping for new features.

Iron

@Jef: LevitonDave nailed it.. Just like RS-232, you don't need to have a TX pin if you're not transmitting.  In this case, the LCD never transmits.  So, no need for an LCD MISO pin.

Blogger

@garysxt: To reduce the firmware complexity. Instead of having to meld in the MAL USB driver firmware, I only have to key  relatively simple RS-232 TX/RX routines that get translated to USB and back by the FTDI part.

Blogger

@FredEady Thanks.  Our application communicates with a cellular modem just using the PIC's UART--don't even need to use RS232 level translation.  I think the main issue is getting the modem into a mode to stream the hex data to a buffer, then programming the FLASH and dealing with any communication errors.  I'm here as a first step on my journey to understanding and implementing this.

Iron

@JeffM the interface IS strange.  You get used to it after a while and almost anything can be done from the keyboard.  And you can setup whatever keyboard shortcuts you want in it's ini file.  And the newest version stores the schematics and boards as xml files you can edit outside eagle.  I've used that to easily globally change things like line sizes.

Iron

Okay, it's getting quiet in here.  See you all tomorrow, and thanks again Fred!  P.S.  Look forward to seeing you again at MASTERs this year... if you attend.

Iron

@aefelgate: I have seen this done.  It all depends on the I/O capabilities of your cell modem. I would imagine you would have to interface to the cell modem's serial interface, which could be RS-232 or Ethernet.  Depends on the modem.  There were some participants discussing that yesterday on this blog I think...

Blogger

@hwhankins: I've looked at Eagle in the past-- it interfaced nicely with B2Spice.  Never made the leap, b/c the interface was a bit funny for my taste (lack of keyboard support/shortcuts).

Iron

@Fred:  Well that's not that bad after all.  Maybe I'll give it a go again.

Iron

@Jeff M: Around $30.. I think you have a board builit before they will release the Gerbers.

Blogger

yes, save time and money

Silver

@ucschmidt:  I might give it a go, given your endorsement.  Are you using LINUX?  What flavor?

Iron

@gberman: That's assuming the embedded device has an Ethernet port. I can see your idea of sending code to be loaded onto the remote microSD card via internet/ethernet as a way to avoid shipping delays and costs. 

Blogger

So they let you have the Gerbers now?  They must charge for that... can you give me an idea of what they charge for releasing the Gerbers?

Iron

I have been using Kicad for a few years. It is now a mature and reliable package

Iron

@miket: I've contacted my ISP and they are working the problem. Seems to have just appeared today.

Blogger

If your doing micro SD for software updates why not just use ethernet and do it from your computer in your office while they are in theirs?

Silver

@JeffM actually there is a free version of EAGLE, limited to 1 schematic sheet, 2 layers, and 4" square max pcb.  They also have a "for home use only" version for around $100 that removes all those limitations.

 

Iron

thanks Fred - adios

Iron

@FredEady  We would like to take advantage of our existing cellular connection to our device to remotely update the firmware.  Have you experience with this?  Or, can you point us to some additional info?

Great seminar, BTW!

Iron

Additional free PCB layout tool for someone to consider: DesignSpark PCB

But you have to order boards from them.

http://www.designspark.com/page/designspark-pcb-home-page

@JeffM Have you looked at EAGLE from CadSoft? Not free but is multi-platform (Win. Linux, Mac).

Iron

@miket: Instead of showing up at a customer location to "reprogram" the micro for a version update or bug fix, you simply put the new code on a microSD card and drop it in the mail.  They get the microSD card, plug it in, push a button and WHAMO the version is upgraded or the bug is squashed. If you're a Florida company and the customer is in Oregon, it's either an airplane ride or a UPS/USPS/FEDEX package.

Blogger

Thank you everyone for a great day!   (I'm off to P.T.)  -sigh-

BTW, Rich:  This page has a horrible issue.  If you leave it and return, it spends the next 5 minutes slowly reloading all the posts... like it's doing now.  Pretty annoying!

Iron

@miket   I posted earlier about a threat on the EDTP site.   Hopefully Fred will see it.

@Fred.  Thank you about the boards.   (And I really enjoy your sense of humor!!)  

@BrokenRotor: I like ExpressPCB.  You get CAD and schematic capture free.  Plus, you can order Gerber files of your projects from ExpressPCB. I use the Gerbers to have stencils made for large production projects.

Blogger

@Jeff M:  I tried Kicad but couldn't get it to work.

Iron

Does anyone still etch or mill?  I rather enjoy the quick turnaround of the former (haven't invested in the latter).

 

Iron

it appears that www.edtp.com has been flagged and reported as potential threat to microsoft

Iron

I've tried those services in the past, like them, but felt there was too much of a premium involved.  I was thinking about using Kicad, though I don't know much about it, except it's free and open-source.  I've been a bit suspect of RS Design Spark, though maybe that's unwarrented.

 

Iron

@JoeFromOzarks: I stopped selling boards a while back. I can supply the files to have your own boards made if you wish..

Blogger

@Kentj  I don't know about BGA's but I don't know why it would not work.  The difficulty might be in not being able to see the paste turn to liquid

Iron

@MazianLab: A bit of trivia.. National Semiconductor helped name my company.  They mispelled my last name ED instead of EADY in their database.  So, I was Eady Technical Publications until that little miscue.  Lots of suppliers made that same mistake. So, I decided to make it easy for everyone and dropped Eady in the company name to become EDTP.

Blogger

@Kentj  Probably obvious, but I do NOT use the toaster oven for anything else (food)!

Iron

@aefelgate:  Does it work on BGAs?

Iron

@Kentj  I have to have it cranked up 450/Toast on the Bake setting.  Only takes about 2 minutes to reflow.  Don't use the wax markers; I just watch the board through the glass until the paste turns to quicksilver.

Iron

@aefelgate:  Excellent idea with the toaster oven.  I didn't think it would get hot enough.

Iron

Diptrace is easy to learn and free to 300 holes and exports the correct Gerbers perfectly.

@aefelgate: Almost.. Beware of the second SPI portal.. It can only be configured for SPI on the 28 pin part.

Blogger

@Kentj  Thanks for the info about PCB123, haven't tried them.

 

Iron

@Jeff M:  I use Express PCB for schematic capture and board layout but you're limited to four layers.  I think you get more layers with PCB123 but it's harder to create your parts library.  Both are free.  PCB123 you're restricted to only one board fab house though.

Iron

@JeffM have you tried ExpressPCB.com?  They offer FREE CAD tools.  You do have to order boards from them, but they are competitively priced.

I order SMT stencils from StencilsUnlimited.com, and use a $39 toaster oven to reflow my parts.

 

 

Iron

hi Fred - what is advantage of implementing a boot loader as opposed to using the microchip reprogramming process

Iron

Listening to the recorded session to see what I've missed...

Iron

Thanks Fred! Great class!

Iron

Recorded audio is available now...

Iron

Jeff M asked:  Was wondering if you can comment on your preferences for schematic capture, PCB layout, and manufacture.  I'm interested in low-cost and quick!

Thank you all for being here today.  I'll dive into the chat now :-)

Blogger

Good seminar, thanks Rich and Fred

Iron

Hi Fred,  Enjoyed you presentation.  Was wondering if you can comment on your preferences for schematic capture, PCB layout, and manufacture.  I'm interested in low-cost and quick!

 

Iron

Using "I2C" with a Silicon Labs radio chip in a current project. Haven't used USB yet.

Iron

@markharkins: Absolutely. In volume that would rival the transistor level shifter circuitry.

Blogger

Thanks for the talk. It was very informative.

Iron

This could come in handy to build an interface for legacy PLC applications that only support RS232 especially since the manufacturers can't seem to built a reliable interface.  Will need to look at this more in detail later.

Iron

Thank you Fred for this well done presentation / project

I ve done something similar to it during summer - using ATmega32u4 MCU

Iron

With the FTDI chip you can make any type of USB device? (evan a USB hub?)

Iron

I prefer USB on chip as I'm also using Ethernet.  GPIB is the only external chip I need for communications.

Iron

@jef - not necessary to close the loop.

 

External USB. Thanks Fred and Rich!

Iron

Thank you for the presentation, see you tomorrow

Thanks Fred and Rich.

Iron

LCD1 shows MOSI (SI) but doesn't it need a SO to close the SPI loop?

Iron

yeah i agree where I think selecting a micro with built is USB support would be easier

Iron

Thanks Fred!  Excellent!

Iron

Thanks Fred and Rich.

Iron

Outstanding presentation, see U tommorrow

Iron

Thanks Fred, excelent presentation again.

Iron

Thanks Fred and Rich!

Iron

Thanks Fred!  You have the most calming voice.  Love the accent!

Iron

I will select to implement USB in Microntroller not seperately..as it will reduce power, board size.

 

Iron

Thanks Fred - great session today!

Iron

Thank you Fred, great lecture

Iron

depends on the project, but the ft232rl seems a good part

Iron

@Fred Why did you chose the two chip solution instead of a PIC with built in USB for this project?

Iron

I prefer xternal but sometimes time and or power favors internal.

Iron

********** Slide 29 ************

Iron

@MazianLab: it should be availabel 24/7. If you find that it's not available, let me know.

Blogger

External USB more convinient.

Iron

********** Slide 28 ************

Iron

can we use the microchip j-tag like reprogrammability to advantage and avoid much of this hardware and 40K size of code and just bang the hex files in using those sequences

Iron

The FT232RL part is very easy to use, we use it a lot (we'll use it as as debug port rather than put in RS232 interface).  Typically, we opto isolate it from the microprocessor because of the current limitation of the USB port.

Iron

********** Slide 27 ************

Iron

USB firmware is a pain, but with good library support I'd rather have it built into the uC.  However, the FTDI part is a great way to add USB to a legacy product or controller without USB.

Iron

********** Slide 26 ************

Iron

Depends on project, out side could solve some other issues.

Iron

I have used FTDI external for USB. Might use a PIC with built in USB for a project I am considering doing.

Iron

I use Atmel chip with USB integrated in chip

Iron

Unless cost is the issue

Iron

External USB is preference

Definitely would be interested in similar teaching on the AVR 8-bits.

 

Iron

USB within the uC is a little handier, but it's good to know how to use the FTDI FT232RL when the uC doesn't support USB natively

Iron

External seems more convenient

Iron

USB - lowering cost by minimum part count is preferred.

Depends on availability of windows drivers to support it

Iron

********** Slide 25 ************

Iron

@richnass, Thanks, I asked for archive availability time.

Iron

and we are on slide 24 already...

Iron

oops... just joined the live lecture... almost made it...

Iron

********** Slide 24 ************

Iron

the message board stopped updating for me

 

Iron

********** Slide 23 ************

Iron

@MazianLab: classes will be available throughout the year

Blogger

********** Slide 22 ************

Iron

********** Slide 21 ************

Iron

********** Slide 20 ************

Iron

********** Slide 19 ************

Iron

I went to the EDTP website to see if thisd dev board was for sale but didn't find it.  Are these available?

********** Slide 18 ************
Iron

What is the EDTP stand for?

 

Iron

********** Slide 17 ************

Iron

********** Slide 16 ************

Iron

********** Slide 15 ************

Iron

********** Slide 14 ************

Iron

starting into I2C, like it for chip interface..  SPI sounds interesting for board to board but i've not needed it yet

Iron

********** Slide 13 ************

Iron

I use RS232 most just used to it I am old fashioned.

Iron

Prefer SPI over I2C.  Try using 24 identical ADCs and 24 identical DACs with I2C.  I also use RS232 a lot.

Iron

Used the FT232RL a lot, great device!!!!

Iron

in the past it was rs2323, now is I2C and spi

Use SPI fast, simple, low power.

Iron

I've used UART and CAN

 

Iron

RS232 serial, i have the analyzers and i know the protocol

Iron

I like SPI for speed, but sometimes you are stuck with USART only.  Whatever I need to use...

Iron

I 'm a SPI guy. Nice fast bus.

Iron

spi - chip select

i2c - addressing

Iron

Used RS-232 most often (less frequently now), I2C fairly frequently. Never used SPI but expect I will before long.

Iron

Lately, I like Maxim/Dallas 1-wire.  Power parasitic parts right from the PIC port pin.

Iron

SPI for on board communication.

Iron

********** Slide 12 ************

Iron

I2C due to addressing support. I'm comfortable with all.

I like SPI because it is much faster as far as serial goes.

Iron

I used USART and SPI, depending on slave capabilities.

Iron

SPI, I2C, what ever I need to use!  LOL!

Iron

my audio keeps cutting in and out

 

Iron

I personally like SPI

Iron

********** Slide 10 ************

Iron

********** Slide 09 ************

Iron

********** Slide 08 ************

Iron

********** Slide 07 ************

Iron

28 pin version is the 27J13, correct?  Identical except for pin count?

Iron

********** Slide 06 ************

Iron

********** Slide 05 ************

Iron

@LevitonDave: yep, it's me.  Good to hear from you!

Iron

@ richnass, archive how long would be availabe?

Iron

********** Slide 04 ************

Iron

@brada - That you Brad?

Good afternoon folks,

Iron

Streaming audio is blocked by my work... Youtube works though.. go figure.

Silver

Audio started clearly.

Iron

@brada - Yep - Spent many a year working on the 8920/8935 :) (it's Dave Burgess)

Hi from Midland Tx

Iron

Audio is up, you might need to refresh!

Iron

Hello, from Greensboro

Iron

Hello from Torrance, CA

Iron

@LevitonDave: Hey I'm still in Trentwood.  Ahh, the old days at HP!

Iron

Afternoon, from St. Louis MO.

Iron

Hello from Albuquerque.

I see that Microchip has their PIC32 Ethernet Starter Kit on sale this month as part of their February Dev Tool Deals

Iron

@richnass.... all the archive audio works fine after lunch but not before

Iron
Hello from Westchester , New York.
Iron

Good evening from Iasi, Romania

Iron

Hi from Casper, WY

Iron

@ucschmidt. It should be on 24/7

Blogger

@billT - Where in Spokane? Lived in Millwood for many years.

@rjtonnis  Audio starts pretty much right at 11 (PST)

Iron

@richnass..... I have tried to catch up on courses that I missed last spring. The archive audio doesn't seem to work in the mornings. When do they turn it on?

Iron

Hello from Spokane Washington!

Iron

Hello, how soon will audio start.

Iron

@LevitonDave, Rich,  After the Go Daddy commercial, I simply feel like I've missed something!

Iron

Anybody got a PICkit 2 for sale?

 

Iron

Good afternoon, everyone

Iron

Rich - you should know by now we're teh exception to the rule - social engineers ;)

Hello again from Durham NC

Iron

This is looking like a 24-hour class

Blogger

Good morning all from CA

 

Iron

Boot loader interfacing dependes on what's avaiable. If you already have a communications mechanism (RS-232/RS485/CAN/Ethernet/RF) use it to avoid additional costs unless the driver for it makes the boot loader too big.

@mharkins -I know ;)

@levitonDave  I've designed smoke detectors before.  Why not?  LOL! 

Iron

I was thinking Flash drive was the way to go but I'm still in the design stage on that part of it so always open to suggestions.

Iron

depends on app, agreed. but still, 128MB is an awful lot of memory.

@mharkins - Yea - not sure I want a smoke detector with an SD card on it :)

@LevitonDave  Yea, I was reading boot loaders for the field, which adds to the hardware interface needs.  For factory, there are lots of different approaches you could take.

Iron

Depends on application - not sure I want to write a distributed lighting control system for a 10 story building in assembly.

write in assembly, don't need an RTOS.

@drrowley_lpe - An RTOS will blow past that without even looking back. My biggest embedded design is ~4.5 MBytes of code including RTOS.

Fred - thanks for the input.

In general, the cost and board area for an SD card is actually above our threshold. 3.3V Serial with a 3 pin header is about what we can tolerate (may even drop the 3 pin header and only use test points for connectivity). SWD is typically only used for factory programming and many devices are reprogrammed or tossed if they don't work.

general interest

curiosity- 128MB of flash... anyone ever use that much? Even in a complicated software design, i have never gone past 20'KB', even with a couple of look up tables.

Did any one see link to the source code for this project ? When I go to the EDTP site (www.edtp.com) all I see is a shopping cart page for buying EDTP AirPlane card . What link navigates to schematics or source code?

Fred, wouldn't simple SD card interface be the cheapest.  Hardware addition is low, no external IC drivers needed.

Iron

@BruceMcLaren:  Not yet. ;-)

Iron

@BruceMcLaren - no we just had fun with off topic conversations. :)

Reading the comments already posted, I feellike I'm late. :-)

Good afternoon everyone.

Iron

Hi, LevitonDave

It used to be that a simple RS-232 bootloader was the cheapest way to go.  These days, the FTDI parts are just as cheap or cheaper than the RS-232 drivers. To really get down and dirty, eliminate the RS-232 IC and replace it with a couple of transistors and resistors. The LCD would also have to go.

Blogger

BBQ comments did not last too long - good eating but bad for the body.

 

 

Iron

@Fred Eady:  Thank you.

Iron

Hi Fred - any suggestions on approaches to boot loaders for cost sensitive devices?

Hi, Kentj

FAT32 is OK to use. 

Blogger

@Kentj - thank you for your sacrifice and service. it is truely appreciated.

@LevitonDave:  No I work as a contractor for Semetrol now.  I'm a disabled vet and it got the better of me.

Iron

@Kentj - John Fluke, Bill & Dave and Howard were a breed that appreciated customers and employees and used that to drive their decisions. Dahaner just look at their acquisitions as something to fuel their next acquisition (lean out the costs in an organization to get profits).

OH!  Wrong MikeH!  LOL

Iron

@LevitonDave LOL  Must have talked to Dan!

Iron

Sorry.  Got my time mixed up.

Iron

@MikeH - still have an hour to the lecture.

John Fluke wanted to support equipment for seven years after obsolesence.  When Danaher took over they got rid of support parts so they couldn't be maintained.  I intercepted the parts from the dumpster and brought them in whenever needed as long as I worked there.

Iron

Still waiting for the audio player, right?

Iron

@Kentj - you work for the high tech company that shares a name with the state?

@Kentj - Left Tektronix for the same reason. Danaher took over them as well.

We use to compete - I worked for HP in Spokane for 20 years as well.

I worked for Fluke for 24 years.  They used to be a good company too, before Danaher took over.

Iron

@uWave Hunter - Leviton Manufacturing (Melville NY) started out making gas mantles for indoor lamps and when Edison came along tehy recognized the shift in market and started pursuing electrical. Flat prong plug and pull chain light sockets were Leviton's inventions.

Not sure Fred is a Microchip expert. My experience is with NXP and Motorola but the principles are common.

Kodak is a great company, just not as big.  Alot of people know of Rochester by Kodak

What company was teh gas lamp company? Colman 

Will there be any discussion on other manufacturers?

 

Iron

So is Leviton - Mr. Leviton got together with Edison and teh company has been around for over 100 years.

Kodak is still a good company.

Iron

@uWave Hunter - understand I work for a company that started out making gas lamp mantles.

@Kentj - That one requires more detailed knowledge than I have.

@Fred Eady - Please look at Kentj's question on File system type with the PIC Flash Drive Bootloader.

Hello from Rochester NY Where kodak was once a photo giant. 

 

hello from Millington Michigan

Iron

I'm using a PIC32MX695 with flash drive bootloader.  Would it be better to use FAT32 in this case?

Iron

@Kentj - You can ask - not sure if we can answer but if you flag it for Fred I'm sure he'll get to it when he comes on the chat room.

Good afternoon from Chicago.

Iron

@LevitonDave - No problem at all. It's always good to learn of culinary alternatives.

Iron

Is it too early to ask a technical question I wasn't able to ask yesterday since I didn't get here until 3pm CST?

Iron

Sorry EdB_Vt hobbies always are fun to talk about. It's an alternative to high tech.

There is also a branch of BBQ that comes out of South Carolina (I believe) that uses a vinigar &/or mustard based (not tomatoe based) sauce that doesn't have as much sugar. that might also be an option.

It's a good thing this conversation is taking place at lunch time (at least here on the East Coast).

Iron

Never tried that - Citrius might add a new flavor. Have to try it once the rain stops. Thanks for the idea.

One of my son's-in-law does the same for me.  Those ribs are excellent.  He puts lemon pepper seasoning on it for me at least.

Iron

A dry (no sauce) brisket might not be too bad since the rub to meat ratio is low.

Mother-in-law has the same issue. I smoke my own and don't put sugar in the rub. Serve it dry and she can put BBQ sauce on as appropriate.

I feel for you. Part of why I learned to make my own.

I sure wish I could eat BBQ.  It either has honey and/or brown sugar and I'm diabetic.

Iron

BBQ - slow smoke cooked goodness.

we'll have to open a Timmy's for You

Iron

@Kentj - Yes but they have good Que!

 

They have no good coffee here in Texas except at Texas Roadhouse restaurant.

Iron

Rich have we picked on coffee enough?

Being in the PNW makes one jaded on coffee (among other things)

I think that's on purpose to get that "over cooked taste" people are use to.

Even Dunkin' Donuts coffee in the bags tastes like it's been in the pot too long when it's brewed.

Iron

New project - Embedded control of a home made coffee roaster. Woudl be a fun challenge.

Still haven't figured out the attraction for Dunkin' Donuts Coffee?

We have Dutch Brother's here and it is better as well but free coffee is still free coffee. ;)

Tully's has better coffee.  It's not burnt.

Iron

@richnass - we need the coffee so we are making sure we're in the running for the Starbucks cards. :)

66 in Richmond, TX.  Anxiously looking forward to moving back to Washington state where we had all four seasons.

Iron

When I visit http://www.edtp.com/ the antivirus pops up a dialog:
Norton blocked an attack by:
Web Attack: Blackhole Toolkit
Website 20.

 

Anybody else?

This week's classes seem to draw the early risers. Welcome all. 30 degrees and blah in NJ.

Blogger

Good morning from Surf City USA

Iron

They're Baaaack....

 

Iron

Good Morning from Portlandia - typical Portland winter day rainy and cool

Good morning, everybody, from warm and sunny Phoenix.

Iron

Good Morning From San Jose, CA.

Cloudy. It's 48°F and a High of 53°F.

Iron

Greetings from Raleigh

 

Iron

Morning Everyones! from BC

Iron

Good Morning from Tenneessee.

Iron

Good (period of time of day you're in) all from Richmond, TX

Iron

These boots are made for loading (sorry, Nancy Sinatra)

Good Morning from Portland Oregon

Iron

If there was a link to the source code for this project posted, I missed it.  I did not readily find the source code at http://www.edtp.com/index.php (maybe it has yet to be posted?)

Slides look good to go, tomorrow...

Iron

Monday Morning downloading all decks. It would be nice to make a zip of all of them.



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Focus on Fundamentals consists of 45-minute on-line classes that cover a host of technologies. You learn without leaving the comfort of your desk. All classes are taught by subject-matter experts and all are archived. So if you can't attend live, attend at your convenience.
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