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Thanks for archiving these lecture and presentation.

Iron

Looking forward to the rest of the classes. Thanks Fred.

Iron

Good session Fred. You have an excellent presentation style that keeps the subject matter interesting.

Iron

I've never programmed PIC processors.

Iron

Have not implemented a microSD bootloader before. Here to learn.

Iron

Hello from Beaverton, Oregon.

Iron

Kind of nostalgic when Fred talks about bootloaders making things easier in the field.

first experience was with papertape bootloader into core. That made troubleshooting easier with access to something low level and was mostlikely still working!

Iron

hello to Montana.

better late than never for these courses.

Iron

Watching archived from Montana

Platinum

hello all from Edmonton, Alberta, Canada

Iron

Thanks for archiving these presentations!

 

For those interested in the industry historical approaches to booting / bootloading, the opening lecture might benefit a little from some historical perspective.  One succinct article on same can be found at:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Booting an excerpt of which follows:

 

Apple Inc.'s first computer, the Apple 1 introduced in 1976, featured PROM chips that eliminated the need for a front panel for the boot process. According to Apple's ad announcing it

           "No More Switches, No More Lights ... the firmware in PROMS enables you to enter,

            display and debug programs (all in hex) from the keyboard."

Good presentation, the use of color slides helps a lot to point out key areas

Thanks Fred - looking forward to day 2

Iron

I dont have any bootloader projects in the works currently

Looking forward to learning somthing new

 

Picking up the class a bit late

Very informative, Thanks Fred.

Thanks Fred, I don't have much experience with PICs specifically but I think this is going to be an interesting topic.

Iron

Another late attendee.

Thanks for a very informative section.

Iron

A bit late today....thank you for having these classes.

Iron

That was very comprehensive. Thanks

 

Iron

nice explanation. Thank Fred.

Iron

I'm out folks.. See you tomorrow..

Blogger

I certainly hope so, wthomas46..

Blogger

Will do. Talk to you tomorrow.

LOL!  that was Thanks LevitonDave!  See, typos are common!

Iron

That's LevitonDave.  Wear leveling won't be an issue in our application.  (YEa, I read through the typo!  :)  Be sure to say hi to Dan Evans for me.  Used to work with him at GE Security.  C'ya all tomorrow.

Iron

standard not datandard :(

@mharkins - We had issues once we tried to get the high density cards operational. The driver we had didn't cleanly support the HD cards. It may have been something in the initialization sequence but we didn't have the datandard to reference so we were flying blind.

We were also looking at generic FAT vs FAT32 at the time. Our problem was wear leveling on the SD card.

LevitonDave, from what I see, the code I wrote is up to the SD 2.00 spec, so unless I ran into speed issues, there should be no issues with the higher capacity cards once I get the Fat 32 on there.  Am I missing something?  I've taken a SDHC card and partitioned, and formated a Fat16 partion and had no issues.

Iron

Beware the CCS Compiler. You must spend an extra $200.00 to get the PIC 18fXXXX files needed......

Iron

No problem - issues are making sure you can still reboot into some form of operational state if power is lost while actually reprogramming. This can get tricky especially since you may need to erase and write the reset vector to ensure things will work during the reprogramming.

IN the coming weeks are we going to learn any real programing the PIC chip

 

Iron

MAL is short for Microchip Application Libraries, mdsmdsmd.

Blogger

yes, jcbacas.. make sure you choose a PIC with enough memory resources.

Blogger

Yes, jcbacas.. Make sure you choose one with enough memory resources.

Blogger

oops.. that would be LevitonDave.. fingers working as fast as my mouth :-)

Blogger

Can't say I have DevitonDave.. Sounds like FUN :-)

Blogger

I'll try to post the files early in the week for everyone.

Blogger

Thanks Fred, will any of the DIP based 18F parts work with this ?

Iron

Fred - have you ever had to update the boot loader in the field? (App to update the boot loader and then re-enter the boot loader?) it can get real fun to avoid a brick.

hi, drw36.. Yep.. I see that it's a bit confusing.. I'll get the hang of this as the week progresses :-)

Blogger

The start location is arbitrary.. It depends on how big your bootloader code is. Just so happens that our bootloader code is a bit less than 40K.

Blogger

Fred, it would help reading the blog if you prefaced your responses with @questioner so we know which question you are answering. Often your response is several entries after the question. Thanks

Iron

Someone mentioned schematics and the such on EDTP's web site.  I couldn't find it.  Can one provide the URL?

Thanx!

Iron

Ahhh, you're talking about the secure digital cards. Yep, haven't dealt with them yet.  Hopefully I won't have to!

Iron

As far as I know, the audio will be available..

Blogger

The MAL code does not support 16F parts.  Although, I do recall writing a serial (

RS232) bootloader a few years back.  The 887 can write its own FLASH as I recall.

Blogger

I just had to modify my SD card initialization for dealing with the SDHC cards.  Only needed a couple of commands.  Adding the Fat 32 support is a bugger though.  When you buy cards off the street, anything I've found that was 2G or less came formated as Fat 16.  SO that's what our initial product was released with.  Now once again, things have changed!  LOL

Iron

Thank you Fred! see you tomorrow!

@mharkins - Sorry for the confusion. You are fight the Fat16 limiation of 2 G is correct. However, the file system is not the issue for SD cards it is the protocol for the High Density. We have a Fat32 on a 2 G card and 4 G card that works just fine. However, it doesn't work with the HDSD cards. SD driver stack needs to be modified.

Thanks Fred!

I hope I got to all of the questions. Looking forward to "seeing" you all again tomorrow.

Blogger

If your target micro can program its own FLASH, there is no reason why you could not port this code for another platform.

Blogger

Can PIC16F887 be used with bootloader? If yes, are there any known references? Thank you!

Yep.. There is actually a define that lets you select the FAT version.

I kept it at FAT32 because I had plenty of FLASH and SRAM.  I'll bet it would be smaller with FAT16.

Blogger

Actually, it is an issue with SD card size.  You can't formate  >2G with Fat 16 unless you partition it with external utilities.  I just didn't want to have to talk customers through that experience!

Iron

Actually the Fat16/Fat 32 is not the issue with SD card size. It's the protocol to support the HD capacity.

Hi Fred, I have a development kit with several components, can I use the bootloader without affecting the functionality of the components?, is this bootloader in C? can I use a boot loader from any other maker?

Iron

SD cards only come formated as Fat 16 (2G and smaller), and Fat32 >2G

Iron

@aefelgate - there are two layers of retry - record and file. if you can accomplish it the record level is definitly better for dection and recovery but the protocol may not support it.

getting back in the stream..

Blogger

Yep.. I yacked a bit too much today.. My tongue caught fire during the presentation :-)

I'll pace it a bit tomorrow..

Blogger

Fred - coud you pull out the Fat8/Fat16 to buy some size. However, there is no cignificant value in shrinking code below a page size boundry since the page will still be the limit.

Yep.. I yacked a bit too much today.. My tongue caught fire during the presentation :-)

I'll pace it a bit tomorrow..

Blogger

Yep.. I yacked a bit too much today.. My tongue caught fire during the presentation :-)

I'll pace it a bit tomorrow..

Blogger

Yep.. I yacked a bit too much today.. My tongue caught fire during the presentation :-)

I'll pace it a bit tomorrow..

Blogger

LevitonDave,

Agree.  Then a retry mechanism if the final image is not error free.   We can do-over if the file gets corrupted at some point. 

 

Iron

@LevitonDave  Say hi to Dan Evans over there for me!  :)

Iron

Don't know of one off hand.. I thought it would help to color coordinate the fields with the text.

Blogger

@aefelgate - For this approach you will need to have some form of confirmation of receipt/success since the communications mechanism is inherently unreliable. (use to design equipment for the cellular industry)

Thanks for providing the source code and schematics at your web site.

Iron

The idea was to have enough FLASH left over for a large application to run in.  The bootloader is a C app that pulls in lots of modules.  I'm sure with some work we could reduce the size of the bootloader by eliminating unecessary modules. 

Blogger

LevitonDave,

Exactly what I need to worry about.  I am doing a remote bootloader over a cellular connection.  Will need to accept the hex stream via a cellular data connection (via PIC uart).

 

Iron

The SPI and SD interface is not so bad, but support of FAT16 and 32 adds a ton.  In fact, I'm just now writing code to add the Fat 32 since its getting harder and harder to find 2Gig and smaller SD cards.

Iron

Yep.. www.microchip.com.. Download the MAL (Microchip Application Libraries.  You'll see the MDD File System section, which holds all of the files.

Blogger

Fred your not a dinosaur your a contemporary :)

Yep.. I'm a Dinosaur.. I'm old, but I still remember that project :-)

Blogger

The SD file system is why the code is so big. The SD interface has lots of overhead and so does the file system. If you were to use some form of streaming interface, the size might be smaller.

Error recovery for streaming is a big problem that having the file local overcomes.

Not this week.  However, if enough of you show interest, I'll be glad to present on that topic.

Blogger

Maybe in the future we'll do some Freescale stuff.  The Code Warrior I know won't fight alongside a PIC :-)

Blogger

 

Thank Fred, I found a dev kit for PIC18F47J13 that I will purchase online.  I will continue through the class and double back once I receive the kit.  Will the audio be available for review after the class?

Maybe emacs has also such a coloring feature?

 

Iron

It can be shared in a sense.  You have to tell your application about the MDD File System files just like you have to tell the bootloader about them.  It's the same MDD code but referenced from the application instead of the bootloader code.

Blogger

JacquesB: this is prob. the price you pay for getting it from a standard media (microSD) and in standard format (HEX). I had experience with PIC bootloader and we got it in the 6 - 8K range but with a custom protocol using serial IF and a custom stream pre-processed from HEX ... however that also covered a clusters of micros ... "trees an a bus" :-)

Iron

Hi Fred - there is another trick if the PIC supports it. put the programming routine in ram and have it execute from there allowing flahs programming without having the execution/programmign conflict.

For the organizers: It would be useful if the posts would be nested (question-answer-comments) in the archived version of the presentation

Iron

OK, thanx Fred, I'll try this in the future with a DIP PIC-18

(Also Fred, slowing down a bit would be helpful!  Thanx again!)

Also, thanx for the tip mRlu2012

Iron

Re: .hex file coloring. I just opened a .hex file using vim and I see that there is some coloring by default.

Iron

The source code and schematics will be available for download from the EDTP web site.

Blogger

The secret with the audio is to pause it at the begining of the presentation, for about 10 seconds, to allow some buffering. From then on it works fine.

Iron

This bootloader scheme can be used with any PIC18 or higher micro.

The trick is to pick a pic that can reprogram its own FLASH under program control.

Blogger

Hang in there I'm reading and will start answering first in first out...

Blogger

Thanks for the presentation.  See you all tomorrow.

Iron

Jayme: the same for me, Firefox worked better

Iron

Is there a tool to color the intel hex lines to be easier to identify the information in them?

Iron

My audio kept stop using IE, Firefox worked much better.

Iron

Thanks Fred. Looking forward to the remaining presentations.

Iron

You say that the boot loader takes approx 40K. Its quite large compared with the Pic 18F47J13's 128K programm memory

 

Excellent presentation

Iron

Maybe for te rest of the week a new audio player could be found?

Silver

Thanks Fred! Excellent presentation today.

Iron

Thanks Fred! Great presentation.

Iron

Is there a website for these .h and .c files?

You mentioned one early in the webcast.

Thanks Fred.  I seem to remember you used to produce an EPROM emulator a number of years ago. Still have one in a box some place!

Iron

Will there be any discusion of USB boot loaders ?

Iron

Thanks Fred!  I want to make sure I have the right tools to build. I do have a couple of kits one from Freescale and Code Warrior 10 software.  Will this be enough?

Good presentation. High information content. 

Thanks! Great Entry level explanation.

See you tomorrow

Iron

Thanks, Fred.

Great topic and presentation.

Maybe a little too fast..too bad we can't use 50 minutes of the hour.

 

Thanks Fred.  Looking forward to the rest of the week.

 

Iron

Thank very much.

 

 

Iron

Excellent - thanks Fred, Rich, & DigiKey

Iron

Fred, Great explantion of a boot loader!

Iron

why APPLICATION_ADDRESS starts at xA000? And how PIC controller knows that it should start at xA000?

Iron

why bootlader so big? Are it's due strait C implementation?

Iron

Thanks, Fred.  Great intro!

Iron

Thanks Fred,

Excellent Presentation

Iron

can the Fat file system in the boot loader be shared with the application code, or does it need to be duplicated?

Iron

I'm here..Hope you enjoyed today's presentation..

Blogger

Thanks for the info.  It is always good to have the "Zen" explained about how all the parts hang together.

Thanks Fred & Rich!

Iron

Great Presentation! Good pace!

Iron

Great class! See you tomorrow.

Iron

thanks fred and rich

Iron

Thank you Fred and Rich.

Iron

Is the source code available from a download/ftp site?

Whqat PIC other than PIC 18F47J13 can be used for this?  any in DIP package?

 
Iron

Thanks Fred & Rich

Iron

Thanks a lot. Very good lecture.

Iron

thans Fred it's a great show.

Iron

Thank you Rich and Digikey

Iron

Excellent presentation today, Fred!  Thanks.

 

Iron

Thanks for the lecture!

Iron

thank you Fred for today's presentation

Iron

*************** Slide 34 ***************

Iron

@mdsmdsmd - oops ;)

Iron

*************** Slide 32 ***************

Iron

*************** Slide 30 ***************

Iron

*************** Slide 30 ***************

Iron

*************** Slide 29 ***************

Iron

*************** Slide 29 ***************

Iron

It's not for Intel, it was designed by intel.  There is also a motorola defined format but it's not used as much.

 

Iron

*************** Slide 28 ***************

Iron

*************** Slide 27 ***************

Iron

@MazianLab - Everybody uses this Intel format.  It is not unique to Intel micros.

Iron

*************** Slide 26 ***************

Iron

*************** Slide 25 ***************

Iron

*************** Slide 24 ***************

Iron

This HEX File FORMAT is for Intel. Is it any differnces for other manufactires?

Iron

*************** Slide 23 ***************

Iron

are HDSD cards structured the same or would the address need to change?

*************** Slide 22 ***************

Iron

*************** Slide 21 ***************

Iron

*************** Slide 20 ***************

Iron

*************** Slide 19 ***************

Iron

*************** Slide 18***************

Iron

*************** Slide 18 ***************

Iron

*************** Slide 17 ***************

Iron

*************** Slide 16 ***************

Iron

*************** Slide 15 ***************

Iron

@richw42 - don't think it was actual code... just a generic illustration that one may do something like that... ;)

Iron

Audio troubles: In my case it appears that Skype was the problem (WinXP SP3, both Firefox or IE, same symptoms, both working now after I killed the Skype ... but it could have been something else ..)

Iron

*************** Slide 14 ***************

Iron

*************** Slide 13 ***************

Iron

*************** Slide 12 ***************

Iron

hard to find 2G cards now days!

Iron

yep  no false returned

Iron

*************** Slide 11 ***************

Iron

*************** Slide 10 ***************

Iron

@richw42: hold that thought and mention it again when Fred comes onto the chat

Blogger

*************** Slide 9 ***************

Iron

Bug. If if statement is false, there is no return statement.

 

Iron

@rajman: audio is not downloadable. But it is archived on the Design News web site

Blogger

*************** Slide 8 ***************

Iron

Learning bootloaders in general. open to any project any PIC, etc

Yes, no buttons, no display, program update is delivered on RS-485.

Iron

Hello all, please is there a way to download and save the audio after the class?  And are there possible contacts that can be followed after the event?

 

Iron

Can we listen to the audio later on today, or is this a live one time shot?

Bummer, takes me 25 minutes to drive home. Thanks for the reply MazianLab.

I did some in the past , I just want to see other way to do it

@mdsmdsmd: thanks for the help

Blogger

It takes around 45 min, then Fred going to answer the questions.

Iron

BrokenRotor: it'll go about 25-30 minutes today

Blogger

*************** Slide 7 ***************

Iron

*************** Slide 6 ***************

Iron

@justtheretolearn: is it possible your company has blocked audio? We often get  that

Blogger

Planning to use on next project.

Iron

How long does this class run today, anyone know?

No specific project at this time but have 3 Pic kits two antiques and one current would like to break the seal on this one and play with it, .... thought this seminar might come in handy since I'm more of a hardware type.

Iron

I need to implemnt a boot loader for a Renesas R8C processor, through an SD card interface so looking for ideas.

Iron

Hello Fred,

My project is to do a remote bootloader for a PIC18F2620 over a cellular connection.

 

Iron

Haven't built a bootloader, so I'm very interested in what Fred has to say!

 

Iron

***************  Slide 5 ***************

Iron

Reuse Microchip examples as much as possible!

Iron

************* Slide 4 **************

Iron

audio is ok, I used tablet & PC here, both okay. But from corporative firewalled PC doesn't work, so may be reason.

Iron

Right click on audio bar there is an audio driver you can download... might help unless your blocked

Iron

Have refresed and log out and back in still no audio

proxy, javascripts blocking audio

Iron

Audio is fine here, but I've had to reload the page in the past.  Might try that.

Iron

If you're having audio issues, please refresh your browser

Blogger

fine for me, clear audio

Iron

Try clicking on play mine keeps coming and going but finally appears to have stable audio.

Iron

Yes, lecture has been started 4 min ago, and sound is clear.

Iron

Ok, I'll look up the Archive playback later.

 

@donnb - what "missing pics" are you talking about?

Iron

what with the sound it's not working

 

Iron

I cant get the audio prompt when I click the play button but nothing after that

Iron

Audio is blocked at work.

Iron

This is archived for those with blocked audio.  Maybe you can get it when you get home.

Iron

Looks like I'll have to wait for the archive, maybe I can listen at home tonight.

Iron

Has the lecture already begun? I can't hear the lecture if it has, just the canned sound bit from Blog Talk Radio

I don't have audio ...

Iron

in powerpoint viewer 2010 the missing pics don't show as missing. but in open office and older microsoft

viewer pics show up as missing. Look a slide number 3. Its obvious something is missing.

Iron

Sounds working good here.

Iron

Audio is blocked here too.

 

Iron

My place has blocked the audio also.

 

I have to repeatly hit the play button - weird!   Anyone else?

Iron

Hmm..  My powerpoint title slide does not match what Fred just read.

 

Bronze

Blog Talk Radio csound bit works fine... can't wait for the rest LOL

Nice. Audio is blocked here at work.

Iron

you need to go to above the chat and click on play to get the audio

 

Iron

good afternoon, everyone

Iron

Audio works... had to click the play button...

Iron

Thunderbirds is a 1966 animated movie!

WHAT?

And here we go!!

try to refresh if it is not showing up

Iron

Hey Don H from S'cuse. I'm in East Syracuse off 298

All slides good here in CA

 

Iron

It's time and still no sound bar

Iron
Will this work on an iPhone?
Iron

-

-

Thunderbirds Are Go!

-

-

 

Iron

Howdy from North Texas!

Hello from Greensboro, NC

 

Iron

Hi DonH, This is another Don H from Syracuse.

Iron

Monday's deck renders good in OpenOffice, but I have some issues with other days. Especially scaling of graphics and overlapping image areas.

Hello from Casper, WY

Iron

Hello All from Pleasant Prairie, WI.  All slides have pics.

hello all, from edmonton, alberta

Iron

Good morning all from CA

Iron

Hello from Torrance , CA

Iron

Hello from Durham, NC

Iron

Greetings from Arizona

 

@LevitonDave  Portland, Oregon

Iron

Hi BrokenRotor. It's nice to have somebody aboard who is colder than me

Blogger

All the slides are fine for me.  I checked in both the PP Viewer and in openoffice.

Iron

Hi all from Minnesota. This is my first online class.

@richnass - I viewed the slides in PowerPoint Viewer 2007, all images are present, unlike what @donnb is seeing.

Iron

Hello from Las Cruces, New Mexico

 

Iron

Almost every slide has a blank space for a picture.

3,5,7,8,9,11,12, etc.

Iron

@richnass.... slides 4. 6..on closer examination it seems that the text is supposed to be grayed out except for the current subject.

Iron

Hello from Torrance , CA

Iron

Hi folks, greetings from Houston.

Iron

Greetings from Mass. Glad to be inside today!

Iron

hello from alaska

 

Iron

Boy is it cold in NJ today.

Blogger

@ucschmidt: which slide #'s are you referring to?

Blogger

Hello from Milwaukee!

Iron

Some of the text on some slides is unreadable

Iron

Greetings from Midland TX

Iron

Are the pictures missing in your presentation for today?

 

Iron

Hello from cloudy and cold Mayfield Hts. Ohio; home of Rockwell Automation.

Hello from sunny Albuquerque.

Iron

Evening! from Cape Town

 

Iron

@LevitonDave, Thank you!

Less than 60 mins to go.

Iron

@Anatoliy1086 - Good luck with that.

@LevitonDave, No, I am not at this moment. But, I am working on it!

Hello from Huntsville, Al

Iron

Good morning! from San Jose~

Iron

@Anatoliy1086 - Just curious, you work for the big high tech employeer out there (multiple campuses)?

@LevitonDave, Hillsboro seems OK, very light fog and its going away now.

@Anatoliy1086 - I'm in Tualatin and commute from Beaverton. Has teh fog lifted there yet?

Good afternoon everyone.

Iron

@richnass - I may have to review part of this one as a meeting came up that might cause me to miss a few minutes in the beginning. I'll answer all questions as I can.

 

drnetwork-- Colorado Springs, CO 

 

Iron

@Anatoliy1086 where in Oregon?

Good Morning everyone

Iron

Pretty active discussion already. Download the slides before the class starts at 2:00 EST. At that time, the player should start on its own. If it doesn't re-load the page.

Blogger

Good evening from Iasi, Romania

Iron

Good Morning from San Jose, CA.

It's 44°F Foggy and a High of 63°F.

Iron

Hi from Alabama.  A Hashish Free Zone!

 

Iron

Hi there from California. Partly cloudy at 51 degrees F.

Iron

Good Afternoon from Sunny Boston!

Iron

Hi everybady, I am sherlock in Vancouver.

 

Iron

Good Morning from frosty northeast Tennessee.

Iron

@mharkins - Where in Oregon?

Morning from a foggy Portlandia.

 

Good morning from Scottsdale

Iron

Goodmorning from Chicago

Iron

@jackqingz - How's the weather in BC?

Iron

Godd morning from British Columbia, Canada.

Iron

Good morning from Oregon

Iron

Regards from Mexico.

Iron

@LeoSieben - To be clear, the text above will change to the red graphics only when the lecture starts. For the most part in the past, that happens right at the scheduled time.

Iron

@LeoSieben - The lecture is audio only. The audio is through this web page. The box above that says "The audio player will load automatically ..." will change to an animated graphics box. Someone will make a post below, commenting that they have audio. If you don't see the text above change to red graphics, reload the page. Either the lecturer, or someone in a post will indicate the slide number through the lecture

My personal preference is to convert the presentation to a PDF file, and make notes directly in the PDF file for future reference.

Iron

I got the silde deck and can view it via Open Office (Microsoft Office is beyond what I can afford). 

At 1400 EST what is the process to view the lecture?

 

Thanks

Iron

Greetings from Vermont, 21 degF, some sun through the clouds.

Iron

Good morning from Yorktown, NY.

Iron

Good Morning from Mobile, AL

Downloaded the slides - looks like there is lots of code to discuss, but I did not see a link for where I might be able to download the source code.  If you have full source code for this week's example project, can you please post a link. Thanks!

I am glad the power points are up so I have all weekend to study up.

Iron

The time is not clear .You have mentioned 2.00 p.p. EST.My timing is GMT +5.30.Please clear.

Iron


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