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williamlweaver
User Rank
Platinum
Rise of Collaboration
williamlweaver   1/31/2013 7:27:25 AM
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Wow. Thanks for this, Chuck. Definitely a developing story. I'm delighted to hear that there is collaboration (or at least a coalition) of lithium-ion battery users that are willing to swap experience with these systems. I'm sure this type of information sharing between CEOs has happened since the dawn of time, but I'm encouraged that it can be facilitated by social networking such as twitter and not left to chance meetings on the putting green at the club. I'm sure networking at the Engineer level is still best found at the Dearborn Heights Applebee's, but online story swapping is another emerging development that helps to accelerate the exponential technology development curve...

apresher
User Rank
Blogger
Boeing Batteries Need Better Cooling
apresher   1/31/2013 9:11:23 AM
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Chuck, Outstanding coverage.  It's amazing how all of this is playing out in the online media.  But it's also obvious there is engineering and science behind the comments.  Keep up the good work.

Elizabeth M
User Rank
Blogger
So the truth is coming out, now
Elizabeth M   1/31/2013 12:15:53 PM
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Great that you're keeping on top of this story, Charles. I guess now what we're waiting for is Boeing to admit what it has done wrong and then come up with a plan to fix the problem. I was sort of defending them at first but it actually seems like a fairly major oversight to not proivide a proper cooling system...but maybe they thought they did and it was just an honest mistake. I will continue reading your coverage to see how this unfolds! Let's hope it's a good ending for everyone and Boeing sorts this out.

gatesbe
User Rank
Iron
Re: So the truth is coming out, now
gatesbe   1/31/2013 1:27:30 PM
As an alternative to overcharging and heat dissipation how about over discharging? Over discharge damage is the reason many RC enthuiasists charge their lithium ion batteries outside.

Boeing has recieved 100 batteries back from the airlines as defective. It appears the majority have been inadvertently discharged until the battery low voltage cutoff tripped, disabling the battery. In ANA's case 5 of 10 returns were disabled by the low voltage cutoff. Once a lithuim ion battery has gone below the low voltage limit it is very hazardous to charge. It seems risky procedure for the user to bang up against only battery safety stop during routine ground maintenance. Maybe some batteries have very nearly tripped but were unknowingly flown.

Anticipating the question of why don't the battery electronics cut off discharge at a higher voltage, I don't know. It might have something to do with the fact the batteries are also a last ditch power source to keep flying. I can imagine a situation where you would want every joule you could get out of the battery and willingly scrap it later.

I would discount poor high altitude cooling. The batteries are in the pressurized part of the plane, an equivalent to an altitude of 6000 feet so you still have good heat transfer.

NadineJ
User Rank
Platinum
Re: Rise of Collaboration
NadineJ   1/31/2013 3:20:48 PM
Is Musk collaborating or just finger pointing while boosting his credibility on this topic?

The result is great.  It is in Boeing's best interest to be transparent.  A lesson learned from Toyota.

But, Musk's process is too negative to get the results he seems to want...to be hired by Boeing as a respected expert.

Charles Murray
User Rank
Blogger
Addendum
Charles Murray   1/31/2013 6:24:42 PM
NO RATINGS
Regarding the issue of whether a battery management IC, by itself, was sufficient protection for the Boeing batteries: We asked Donald Sadoway of MIT that question by e-mail, and his response came in after the story deadline. So here's his response, which arrived late yesterday: "We have evidence that whatever the electrical demands are in the 787, the IC alone doesn't prevent fire. So perhaps the IC isn't right, perhaps the IC is right but the execution is flawed, or perhaps there is some other factor like decompression/compression, which is the result of ascent and descent." 

Charles Murray
User Rank
Blogger
Re: Rise of Collaboration
Charles Murray   1/31/2013 6:31:48 PM
NO RATINGS
You raise a really good point about the reasons for Musk's collaboration, Nadine. Obviously, no one but Musk knows the full reason, but I imagine there is an element of self-preservation in this. Lithium-ion batteries are getting a going-over in the popular press right now, and some news stories have wondered aloud if lithium-ion is appropriate for electric vehicles. Whether those questions are fair or not, I would imagine that Musk wants people to know that Tesla's battery configuration works safely because the design allegedly makes better allowances for heat dissipation. It's hard to blame him for that.

Tim
User Rank
Platinum
Re: Boeing Batteries Need Better Cooling
Tim   1/31/2013 7:09:13 PM
NO RATINGS
It is pretty amazing how much media is giving time to the Boeing battery issues. You do not often hear scientific discussion in mainstream media, but the Boeing story has brought out a lot of experts.

notarboca
User Rank
Gold
Re: Boeing Batteries Need Better Cooling
notarboca   1/31/2013 8:33:36 PM
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Here's a NY Times article on the 787 battery problem for you perusal:

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/01/30/business/boeing-aware-of-battery-ills-before-the-fires.html?_r=0

warren@fourward.com
User Rank
Platinum
Re: Boeing Batteries Need Better Cooling
warren@fourward.com   2/1/2013 9:29:26 AM
NO RATINGS
Here is a low brainier- GET ALL THE HELP YOU CAN, BOEING! Tesla has experience with these batteries. Boeing's future rides on a solution to this problem. We all need counselors. Boeing would do well to bring others to the engineering table and utilize their experience. I hope they already are. Pride has brought down companies and countries. I hope Boeing doesn't let pride get in the way of their future!

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