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D. Sherman
User Rank
Silver
Yet another article asking the wrong question
D. Sherman   12/12/2012 4:49:41 PM
I'm rather dismayed to see the wrong fear-mongering question again being asked in one of our trade magazines. If we're going to write about 3D-printed guns, the question should be how to make new and innovative guns, not whether or not someone could make one for evil purposes. We can read about a new drug in terms of its benefits, without any mention of how someone could use it for criminal purposes. We can read about a new rocket motor without any mention of someone using it for a ballistic missile. We can read about a new metal alloy without worring that someone is going to use it to make a deadlier knife. And we can certainly read about all kinds of software innovations without any discussion of how someone could use them for criminal purposes. For that matter, people could (and sometimes do) use plain old 2D printers to commit fraud and forgery.


So how about Design News sending a reporter to a legitimate firearms company and interviewing the engineers there about how they are using 3D printers? I can think of two main applications. One is to produce non-firing prototypes to check fit and finish and fine-tune ease of assembly. The other is to produce PARTS for weapons in production. The AR15 platform seems to be the most popular for home builders.

Most of the receivier of any gun, but particularly an AR15, is subject to fairly low stress, and yet it has a complicated shape. In any gun, the chamber, the bolt, and the bolt lugs are the high-stress parts. Most of the rest is just a jig to hold the trigger assembly, stock, and magazine in position. A reasonable approach would be to machine or forge a piece of metal, of fairly simple shape, to carry the ~50,000 psi stresses of firing, while using 3D printed high-strength plastic to hold that and the other low-stress parts together. 

An article focusing on how to optimally combine 3D printing with traditional metal manufacturing processes would also be far more useful to us real engineers than another round of hand-wringing about "what if criminals print guns?"

jeffbiss
User Rank
Gold
not irrelevant
jeffbiss   12/12/2012 4:34:20 PM
Wow, now that's a lot of attitude! I do feel sorry for those 250 engineers you know though. You could have ignored this of course, but no, you couldn't. You had to throw your 2 cents in to let everyone know just how right-wing you are, never to miss just such an opportunity. Besides, this is an issue for engineers to discuss just as was the nuclear bomb for physicists. Enjoy!

kf2qd
User Rank
Platinum
It is being Militarized...
kf2qd   12/12/2012 3:30:58 PM
NO RATINGS
A company in South Africa is aready looking at 3D printing for Military hardware. They are working out the details of using laser sinturing to build parts for a military drone aircraft.


While we spend all our energy worrying about how a civilian might use this technology to create a low production weapon, what about any governments ability to mass produce weapons and use them on the civilians?

Engineers and scientists have produced many things over the years with no thought as to how they could be misused, of maybe without imagining how they could be misused only to have various governments gladly pay for a way to weaponize them. Aircraft - much of the early development was funded by governements to use as weapons. But we still use them for peaceful putposes every day. Nobel - explosives used in mining only to be weaponized by governments going to war.

And lets look at the things that truly create dangers for peopel. Guns are not the first thing on the list, but they are the first thing that many would do something about. What about the dangers brought about by alchohol? or Drugs? or Baseball bats? Or are we just more comfortable with those things and better conditioned to not see the misuse of other common objects?

Lets apply some of that engineers logic and analysis and be a bit less knee-jerk and more level headed in our approach.

Cabe Atwell
User Rank
Blogger
Re: Much ado about something
Cabe Atwell   12/12/2012 3:25:59 PM
NO RATINGS
A lot of guns are already made of plastic, with metal inserts where it counts.

Aside from claiming the baddies will print guns, I wonder if this concept with revolutionize the real weapons manufacturers? I am sure they are already looking into the idea.

C

hydrogent
User Rank
Iron
Much ado about something
hydrogent   12/12/2012 3:02:52 PM
NO RATINGS
The word is "LETHAL"

ab3a
User Rank
Platinum
Re: It's not the guns, Stupid.
ab3a   12/12/2012 2:46:08 PM
Quacker, I'll grant that your concerns may be completely warranted. So, what could be proposed to stuff this genie back in to the bottle? I mean, short of forming a complete police state, what could possibly stop this? 

Shall we license the use of servo and stepper motors?  Shall we license the use of heated nozzles for plastic? How would we control or track these 3D printers? Worse, how would we know what the parts it makes are for?

The reality is that people have always had the ability to build offensive weapons in their basements and garages. The only thing that keeps us civil is a belief in the value of civilization. Regardless of whether one is religious or not, it is very important to teach civility. 

Yes, the veneer of civilization really is that thin. It is indeed very easy to forget this fact. But the existence of a 3D printer is no more a threat than a hardware store. I'm not trivilizing the possibility.  There will be attacks like Oklahoma City. And yet, we can't ban the use of ammonium nitrate or fuel oil either.

I wouldn't lose sleep over this. 


Jake Brodsky

popuptarget
User Rank
Silver
Re: much ado about nothing
popuptarget   12/12/2012 2:15:54 PM
NO RATINGS
one thing I forgot to mention.

look up King Gusavus Adolphus of Sweden and his cannons made of leather dating from the 1600's.  It says something that a cheap leather cannon that lasts for about 20 rounds lasted longer than an expensive 3d part that lasts for 3.  Sure Iron tubes replaced them but it was still an interesting technical achievement.

Ryder
User Rank
Silver
Re: much ado about nothing
Ryder   12/12/2012 1:59:01 PM
NO RATINGS
Here is an interesting article on someone who made the same part, out of wood.

http://www.weaponeer.net/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=8035&PN=2&TPN=2

Oh well.

Ryder
User Rank
Silver
Re: much ado about nothing
Ryder   12/12/2012 1:49:13 PM
I can make any part I need right now with a desktop mill and lathe.
There is nothing new here.

As a smart reply says:

"The "news" about printing guns is simply that additive manufacturing can be applied to a field that is completely dominated by other manufacturing methods."

Additive manufacturing is the wave of the future, and has been understood for decades now.


The ability of people to make whatever they can, when they want, is the perfect expression of human ability and natural law.


To mistake *methods* for dangers is significant, I think.


The fundimental right to project force in defense is fundimental.  What tools you use are irrelevant.

 

About tools:
The 3D Printer is a tool, and the gun is a tool.  The HOLE you make is the final product.

How regressive do we want to be?  The tools to make the 3d printer to make the gun to make the hole?

 


There is no problem with a society where everyone (of modest mental/physical capacity) is armed.  In other words, if you understand the tool, and can use it, then we're good.

Will people die?  Sure.  Did that start with guns?  No.


I'll tell you this, such a population won't simply be led to the gas chambers.

Shadetree Engineer
User Rank
Gold
Re: much ado about nothing
Shadetree Engineer   12/12/2012 1:42:05 PM
NO RATINGS
I agree, it's not like anything new is happening from a legal standpoint. The use of a 3-D printer will not require any laws to be changed or added.

 

Reading the source article is highly recommended, folks!  This plastic lower broke during initial assembly, many holes were intentionally under-sized & needed to be drilled, reamed, threaded & tapped.  This project was not a 'print & go' gun but is just a hobbiests venture to push into new frontiers.

 

The source article has a series of comments worth reading, as well. Looks like a very serious community is referenced there, who will continue this kind of development individually no matter what anyone here might think of it.

 

The file which was downloaded from thingiverse to make this receiver lower resulted in the thingiverse site owners to issue a ban on any future weapon files from being uploaded. I expect this kind of reaction will become a standard for any widespread public forum which I think is a fair reaction. The only people who really are pioneering this kind of technology will continue to share their files on specialty forums, which will limit the public impact.

 

The printing of a firearm will not be the first thing a common criminal will choose as a way to arm themselves, but I'm sure they will be reading about it!  The fact that a printed firearm has no registered serial number, might be interesting to a higher class of criminal. Just take a look at the rapidly booming specialty of 3-D printing ATM scanners, which are designed to fit perfectly on top of an ATM's keypad and allow a 'man in the middle' attack to steal your login details. These scanners are being developed by organized groups who obtain 3-D printers any which way they can. These groups are using these printers specifically to break the law, and for no further use. I would bet they will be thinking about printing weapons.

 

There's a huge market south of the border looking for any kind of firearm. I can see how the fact that a weapon might break after a couple shots will not matter to someone who will mix 5 pounds of baking soda with a couple ounces of crack cocaine just to increase their profit margins.  So I expect to see some kind of funny business in the near future. Maybe a hostage situation where the guy holding the hostage cant take it any longer, pulls his trigger and the gun falls apart. He'll be thinking about how he got ripped-off for a bogus weapon while getting a free trip to the state holiday inn!

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