HOME  |  NEWS  |  BLOGS  |  MESSAGES  |  FEATURES  |  VIDEOS  |  WEBINARS  |  RESOURCE CENTER  |  INDUSTRIES
REGISTER   |   LOGIN   |   HELP
<<  <  Page 2/3  >  >>
Dave Palmer
User Rank
Platinum
Re: real effect of biofuels
Dave Palmer   11/5/2012 5:48:37 PM
NO RATINGS
@GeorgeG: I don't think I agree with your statement that "in the long view, the more frequently a material is recycled, the more energy it uses." Obviously, recycling takes energy -- but the recycled product is presumably taking the place of a new (virgin) product, so the net energy usage is less than making two parts out of virgin material.

It sounds like you are saying that throwing things away is less wasteful than recycling them.  That just doesn't compute.

That being said, the steel industry's lifecycle assessments may be significantly overstating actual recovery rates for recycling.  A recent study published in Science magazine shows that, even though metals are infinitely recyclable in principle, the reality falls far short of that.  Recovery rates, even for commonly-used metals such as steel, are not much above 50%.  A typical piece of steel might be recycled 2 or 3 times in its lifetime before it becomes unrecoverable, certainly not hundreds or thousands of times.

I'm hoping to interview the author of this study for Design News later this month, so stay tuned.

Rob Spiegel
User Rank
Blogger
Re: real effect of biofuels
Rob Spiegel   11/5/2012 3:53:28 PM
NO RATINGS
Thanks for that detail, George. In the study on steel I read, it wasn't specific about what was meant by "processing." I would guess that is pretty much everything that happens from raw materials to vehicle manufacturing.

Ann R. Thryft
User Rank
Blogger
Re: real effect of biofuels
Ann R. Thryft   11/5/2012 12:39:01 PM
NO RATINGS
I think GeorgeG's points are very well-taken. Although my article discusses European issues, the biofuel-and-food-crops situation is a global one, and anything that far-reaching is complex, with multiple parameters and multiple variables. Plus, as Greg mentions, our tools have become more fine-tuned. Although we might prefer it otherwise, alternative solutions have had to be tested in the field, so to speak, before we could get to this point in our understanding.

Dave Palmer
User Rank
Platinum
Re: Limits on biofuel production
Dave Palmer   11/5/2012 11:36:09 AM
NO RATINGS
It's too bad that it's taken six years since the global food crisis began for the role of biofuels to be publically recognized by policymakers.  That's six years too late for millions of people in the developing world.  But at least this problem is finally being taken seriously.

William K.
User Rank
Platinum
Limits on biofuel production
William K.   11/5/2012 10:29:11 AM
NO RATINGS
It is always interesting to see what happens when the unanticipated results of decisions made based on emotion instead of logic become a bit more obvious. The short term problem of bidding up food prices is only one aspect that should have been expected. It will be very educational to see where the EU winds up after the full reality of their choices becomes clearer.

It may be a bit like the consequences of that ROHS set of rules, which have caused quite a few unintended results. Once again, acting on emotions instead of facts does cause problems.

GeorgeG
User Rank
Gold
Re: real effect of biofuels
GeorgeG   11/5/2012 10:21:51 AM
NO RATINGS
" the steel industry's claim that composites eat more energy than steel during processing, and that steel costs less to recycle." -- ah, the complexities of the problem. This argument shows that if you choose to optimize on specific components you can come up with huge fails. The first rule of optimizing a system is to avoid local optimization. When it comes to minimizing total energy use, composites win by a large margin. Aluminum is awful but gets quite a bit better because of low energy intensity and environmental impact when recycled: ~5% energy recycled to raw. Steel is never a challenger for anything as it is less malleable and less stable - particularly it's environmental impact because of chemical processes needed to make a finished product. Recycled steel uses ~26% of the energy for raw steel. Having worked with composites, steel and aluminum for automotive and aircraft construction, I'm not sure what 'processing' they're even talking about - the heat load required to form and shape composites is much smaller than for the other two. Of course, if you were to consider the lifetime energy consumption of transportation products, composites and aluminum have a substantial energy use advantage over steel. One should also consider material turns i.e. what is the lifetime of the material in use, because, in the long view, the more frequently a material is recycled, the more energy it uses. One of the technical problems with sourcing aluminum, especially extruded or cast components, is that the majority of the price is energy content. Of course, the contribution of steel to acid rain is well known.      

OLD_CURMUDGEON
User Rank
Platinum
MORE FOOD to EAT!
OLD_CURMUDGEON   11/5/2012 10:13:41 AM
NO RATINGS
Is it possible that the Europeans have seen the light?  While they may make the public pronouncement why they are considering alternatives to "food" sources for fuel, could it be that this is just a mask to restrict outrage from the far left that has been at the forefront in demanding the use of these raw materials into fuel supplies?  Maybe they've seen the astronomical rise in the price of a bushel of corn in the U.S., since we've gone to ethanol supplements, AND maybe they're beginning to reel seriously from their recent catastrophic directives of ROHS, etc.

As more conservative leaders in Europe emerge, they may be attempting to shift the thinking to an incremental approach to change, instead of a revolutionary approach to change.  Just as you cannot stop a rolling steam engine on a dime, so too you cannot stop an entire economy or process on that same dime!  It just may be that someone has calculated the tillable land available in the greater European Continent, and decided that it would be too extreme to commit more of this arable soil to production of biofuel sources than human food production.

GeorgeG
User Rank
Gold
Re: real effect of biofuels
GeorgeG   11/5/2012 9:43:53 AM
NO RATINGS
Like anything with broad ranging economic as well as ecological impacts, it quickly becomes very complicated. Also, how you tune multi-parameter systems depends on what you wish to optimize. From an economic point of view, biofuels have an attraction to net importers - every time a country imports oil it exports cash which drags down its currency making all imports more expensive and this is a persistant economic impact since a one time purchase exerts this pressure until the cash is repatriated. On the other hand, biofuel from foodstocks seems a crazy idea given the context of declining oil, increased demand for fuels and increasing demand for food based on population growth - when you do a little of this, it's not a problem but when you project forwards, it could be a form of population control. One ecological effect is that biofuels are naturally cleaner than the stuff that comes out of the ground, especially as extraction shifts towards unconventional sources. The US started into corn ethanol partly as a step towards security and to plump US agriculture. Overall, its not a really smart approach as the total energy input required to produce it is nearly 6 times the net energy produced. By comparison, European production of ethanol from root crops is significantly more energy efficient while Central and South American production from sugar cane is very much more energy efficient and produces a cheaper product. The US plan was obviously mainly directed at assisting domestic production given the major efforts to restrict imports of inexpensive ethanol from countires like Brazil which already have a well developed biofuel economy. From a carbon budget perspective, fossil fuels take carbon that was more or less permanently sequestered and releases it into the environment while biofuels recycle the carbon that is already in the atmosphere and oceans and the biosphere slightly distorting the balance between them but not adding to the total.                    

Greg M. Jung
User Rank
Platinum
Biofuel Reality
Greg M. Jung   11/4/2012 3:21:41 PM
NO RATINGS
Great article which takes a deeper dive into biofuel reality.  As we gain more experience with biofuels, some of the intial economic perceptions that we had will continue to need adjustment.  As we use entire life-cycle carbon and cost calculations, surprising numbers will continue to be found.

Rob Spiegel
User Rank
Blogger
Re: real effect of biofuels
Rob Spiegel   11/2/2012 1:58:26 PM
NO RATINGS
Good point on taking in consideration the whole cycle of production on the biofuels, Naperlou. That's the only want to get a good comparison. Another example is the steel industry's claim that composites eat more energy than steel during processing, and that steel costs less to recycle.

<<  <  Page 2/3  >  >>


Partner Zone
Latest Analysis
As energy efficiency becomes more and more a concern for makers of electronics devices, researchers are coming up with new ways to harvest energy from sound vibration, footsteps, and even electromagnetic fields in the air.
Watch IBM's atomic scale stop motion film about, you guessed it, a boy and his atom.
The government wants to study your brain, and DARPA wants to use similar information to give robots true autonomy beyond any artificial intelligence developed to date. Sound like science fiction? It's not.
If the fuse and fuse holder don't match up right, hefty repair bills might follow.
The brakes work just fine, but the brake sensor light has a life of its own.
More:Blogs|News
Design News Webinar Series
5/15/2013 11:00 a.m. California / 2:00 p.m. New York / 7:00 p.m. London
5/22/2013 9:00 a.m. California / 12:00 p.m. New York / 5:00 p.m. London
5/29/2013 11:00 a.m. California / 2:00 p.m. New York / 7:00 p.m. London
5/30/2013 11:00 a.m. California / 2:00 p.m. New York / 7:00 p.m. London
Blogs from Our Sponsors
From Dell / Intel®
New Paradigms in Design Work
Scott Hamilton, vertical market strategist for Dell Precision workstations, 5/2/2013    3
Early in my career, I worked as a draftsman and remember the days of drawing on vellum with numbered pencils and Mylar with plastic lead. This was a fun experience in the sense that I ...
From Dell / Intel®
Increased Workstation Performance Is as Easy as 'DPPO'
Trey Morton, Dell, 4/25/2013    2
I've been using workstations for more than 10 years and love finding ways to get more performance from my system. With demanding professional applications that require more power each ...
From Dell / Intel®
Taking Some of the Grit out of Manufacturing
Kirsten Billhardt, Manufacturing Industry Marketing Strategist, Dell, 3/26/2013    5
A lasting memory from my first job as an engineer in an auto assembly plant is standing on hard concrete at six in the morning, vending-machine coffee clutched in hand, listening to ...
Quick Poll
The Continuing Education Center offers engineers an entirely new way to get the education they need to formulate next-generation solutions.
May 20 - 24, Automation Technologies & Trends for Smarter Homes & Buildings
SEMESTERS: 1  |  2  |  3


DN Radio
Sponsored by
NEXT UPCOMING BROADCAST
A quick look into the merger of two powerhouse 3D printing OEMs and the new leader in rapid prototyping solutions, Stratasys. The industrial revolution is now led by 3D printing and engineers are given the opportunity to fully maximize their design capabilities, reduce their time-to-market and functionally test prototypes cheaper, faster and easier. Bruce Bradshaw, Director of Marketing in North America, will explore the large product offering and variety of materials that will help CAD designers articulate their product design with actual, physical prototypes. This broadcast will dive deep into technical information including application specific stories from real world customers and their experiences with 3D printing. 3D Printing is
Twitter Feed
Design News Twitter Feed
Like Us on Facebook

Sponsored Content

Technology Marketplace

Datasheets.com Parts Search

185 million searchable parts
(please enter a part number or hit search to begin)
Copyright © 2013 UBM Canon, A UBM company, All rights reserved. Privacy Policy | Terms of Service