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Thanks another good session! Great presentation.

Iron

nice work - looking foward to the kernel rebuild

Iron

Cross compiled many kernels for ARM since 2.6.29 to 3.7

Iron

Thank you for great seminar!

Running Lubuntu, Ubuntu, Power Book G4 and Pentium M

No kernel rebuild experience

I am running Ubuntu on a netbook at home.

Iron

Thanks Mike. Another great presentation

Iron

I have built from source

 

 

Running old distro of openSUSE on old dual CPU chip server at home.

Iron

Have built kernel for Linux college class. Don't recall distro.

 

Iron

thanks, another good session

Iron

Thanks another great session Mike

@MIKE,
2pm EST = 8pm CET is a great time to start, please try to use the same timeslot next time.
I'm realy looking forward learning more from you!

Iron

@GBr I'm talking with the DesignNews folks about that.  I've got a lot of material from my in-class seminars and embedded systems conference/embedded Linux conference talks.  So, I suspect there will be more stuff later.

Thanks again Mike.
Are you planning more similar web-trainings for a happy Swedish hobbyist to attend from oversees?

Iron

@GBr Folks have tried to use portage in the past for embedded distros with somewhat mixed results.  Building everything from scratch is a good idea (Yocto uses that concept with bitbake), but it can take several days to build a complete distro with portage.  It just depends on what you're used to I guess.  I know folks who love portage.  I've not had enough time on it to give an opinion one way or the other.

Thanks Mike for a very good session.
I'll save my question for tomorrow.

Iron

@MIKE Whats your opinion on using Gentoo (using Portage/emerge/...) for creating and maintaining embedded distro?

Iron

Thanks, Mike!   Tomorrow...

Thanks! See you toms!

Iron

OK gang... That's going to be it for today.  See you again tomorrow for installment #4...

@GBr look in the kernel source tree in <kernel>/drivers/char/mem.c to see an example of remap_pfn_range.  You can embedd that code in your own driver's mmap() callback from the file operations table.  Then use the user-space mmap() call to call the driver to do the mapping.  It's pretty straightforward once you look at the mem.c code.

@adse True, Yocto has a Linaro layer.  So, you could build Linaro using Yocto's bitbake interface.  Canonical uses Linaro to produce Ubuntu for the ARM.  But, that's not Linaro's sole purpose.  The concern I have for Yocto is that WindRiver, Mentor, MontaVista and Intell all have their hands in the mix.  Cooperation among such fierce competitors is always an intersting thing to watch.  Hopefully, they can continue to set aside their differences for the betterment of the community.

@MIKE, remap_pfn_range() in the kernel and mmap() look interesting. Any good tutorials or should I look in kernel docs?

Iron

Thank you. These are helping me out a lot.

Iron

thank you good info 

Iron

I reviewed Linaro for a while. It seems to be targeted only at making Ubuntu flavors running on ARM.
I am also reviewing Yocto. They claim to have a Linaro layer as well.
So I believe Yocto will be beneficial to leanr then as you can take advantage of Linaro via its layers?

Iron

@GBr For debugfs, you'd need to allocate the maximum buffer size and leave it there.  Then you could have a size variable and the actual buffer as two separate values to handle the variable buffer part.  Or, you could use remap_pfn_range() in the kernel and mmap() from user-space to just map the buffer directly into the user's address space.  Debugfs is probably less prone to errors though.

Thank you. Linaro was going to be my next question. Thank you. Great job.

Iron

Ahh, yes... The Yocto Project.  The goal of Yocto is to be able to create the smallest kernel possible (yocto is the smallest unit in the metric system).  They have been working to modify the OpenEmbedded bitbake system to make it more usable.  So, for that, I applaud their efforts.  Bitbake is terribly convoluted IMHO.  So, anything that simplifies it is a step in the right direction.  For building small distros, I think Yocto is a good project.  But, I also like Linaro for ARM platforms.  Either way, I don't think you can go wrong.  But, Linaro has more of an ARM focus whereas Yocto has more of an x86 focus (it does ARM too, but not as strong an ARM platform as Linaro IMHO).

@MIKE, If DebugFS the best way to implement a buffer that is allowed to grow and shrink a lot dynamicly (communication module driver)?

Iron

Yeah, great job on the training btw :)

Iron

@LevitonDave, installing a minimal Debian using debootstrap is a good way to get a minimal install...

Iron

@andyg54321 You are correct.  You can hook anything as long as you can find the symbol to hook.  That's why systemtap requires kallsyms support.  Look in /proc/kallsyms to find the symbol.

@jaranda - good question onthe Yocto Project!

Iron

Michael, what is your opinion on the Yocto Project?

 

Iron

@cmeade Is that you Chuck?

 

I believe it was mentioned that stap is primarily only for system calls, but it appears to be capable of hooking kernel functions as well, which ups the usefulness considerably.

Iron

@luizcosta -- busybox is not a kernel, it is a reduced-size root filesystem replacement.  There are no kernel sources in a Busybox distribution

Iron

A busybox-based file system will still have most of the interfaces we're discussing this week.  But, busybox is really a user-space thing and is orthogonal to the configuration of the kernel.

I've used SUSE in the past with great results.  It tends to be KDE window manager centric.  But, that's way better than Ubuntu's Ubiquity interface IMHO.  The furture of SuSE is mirky at this point since the Attachmate acquisition.  But, it's still a solid Distro.

@MIKE: Is the busybox kernel of any use for trying these things?

Iron

@LevitonDave, if you look for Mint12 LXDE edition you have a slim 32bit Mint out of the box...

Iron

@Michael - How about Suse for learning, as a development platform for non-hard RT embedded systems requiring full user GUI?

Iron

Using /proc does not require the kernel to be compiled for debugging.  Using debugfs does not require the debugging symbols either, but it's often not enabled in a mainline distro.  Do the "mount" sequence from the charts and you'll find out quickly if debugfs was compiled in your kernel...

Thank you. That helps put ProcFS and DebugFS into perspective.

@Michael - So, from all the debug tools introduced this week so far.
Is it ok to assume procfs is the only one that does not require the kernel to

be recompiled and run in debug mode?

Iron

@LevitonDave I'd start with Linux Mint.  It works well and there are very lightweight window managers available like XFCE.  Great starting point for older machines.

Thanks, 'compile against a particular kernel'   answered my question

Iron

@jamesdeutch Debugfs is used to simply export data.  Procfs is used if you want to exercise a callback into the kernel code.  So, debugfs is realtively passive whereas procfs is very active.  Procfs is also limited to just 1 page in memory (4K on 32-bit)  whereas debugfs has no such limitation.

@mkreich Those two calls were just names.  You could have called them "fred" and "barney" as long as you referece them properly in the module_init() and module_ext() calls correctly.  Also, you'll compile them against a particular kernel.  This uses the makefile approach of a one-line makefile and the
make -C <path to kernel source> $PWD module

build command

@Michael - Thanks I'm trying to get an older PC up wiht Linux and figured it might be easier to start down a flexible and extensible path.

I may have missed this, but for what scenarios would you choose to use ProcFS vs. DebugFS, and vice versa, as your chosen debugging technique? When is one stronger than the other as a technique?

Distros to learn from include Linux Mint, Ubuntu, Fedora and OpenSuSE.  I use Linux Mint myself because it's based on Ubuntu, but closer to the Debian look and feel for things like kernel configuration.  BTW, the Linux kernel configuration command I was using is "make xconfig" from withing the Linux kernel sources (available from kernel.org).

Do jprobe_init and jprobe_exit calls have to be linked with (built with) the kernel?  Or can they be compiled eg under a running kernel and called in a user exectable to tap into a running kernel?

Also, how limiting is the reequirement to reporduce the var list?

Iron

So from all the debug tools introduced today.
Is it ok to assume procfs is the only one that does not require the kernel to

be recompiled and run in debug mode?

 

Iron

This is the live chat page.

Iron

Your on the live chat page and it is going now until about the top of the hour.

Yes, we'll be covering LTTng tomorrow and KGDB on Friday.

 

Thanks Mike & Chuck. Another informative session!

Iron

http://sourceware.org/systemtap/tutorial.pdf

Iron

Is there a link for the live chat page??

 

Iron

Hi Michael - for learning how to create drivers and general Linux development on a PC platform, what distribution would you recommend (figure using an older single core PC with limited resources)?

what kernel version is kprobe first introduced?

 

Iron

Thank you for the presentation. Very interesting topics.

IMO it's not a question of what's "easier". It depends on what you need. If you need to view something not exported to user space, then write a module. Else, write a SystemTap script.

Iron

Thanks Mike and Chuck!   This has been great - tons of information

great info... thanks Mike.

Are you going to cover LTTng tracepoints and gdb fast tracepoints with agent expressions?

 

Where and what time does the live question and answer session from audience happens.

Iron

thank you Michael,

Iron

Yes, you can use kprobes for any symbol that's exported in a LKM.

 

@Mike:  How do I run Kernel Configurator?  Looked on Ubuntu, couldn't find it.

also, what was the url for stap tutorial?  sourceware.org...

Iron

@Michael, is DebugFS the best way to implement a communication buffer that is allowed to vary heavily in size for a communication device driver?

Iron

Thank you Michael, great presentation.

Iron

thanks Chuck and to digiKey for these great presentations ... missing my Starbucks though

Iron

WIth kprobes we're really starting to go into the deep end of the debuggin pool... ;-)

 

Thank you for a very informative lecteur.

Iron

@gschmick - URL is on page 15

Thanks Mike and DesignNews

Iron

Good session thanks. See you tomorrow.

Iron

Can I use kprobes etc for functions within LKMs?

 

Iron

Thanks for another great presentation

 

Iron

Hi all from the land of Ice & Snow, North Pole,

Alaska, near Fairbanks, AK.

 

Iron

thanks again Mike for a super super presentation

Iron

I've loaded tons of linux systems just not recompiled the kernel myself

 

Thanks Mike and Chuck, an interesting session. See all tomorrow.

Iron

Thanks Chuck, Mike and all.

Iron

Thank you for today's lecture Michael

Iron

start w/ stap, if that does not get it debugged, go for kernel module

Iron

Love these hooks.

 

 

Iron

Depends on the task, is always good to know you have all these options.

Iron

@nicks: The hald process opened three files during the 4 seconds that the SystemTap was active, so we see the printf("...") get called three times.

Iron

undecided -- would have to try both approaches first

Iron

haven't used System Tap, but I would lean towards a kernel module

Depends on what I'm trying to look at. If I'm working on a driver, then I'd use a kprobe/Jprobe. If I'm debugging an interface to the OS then I'd use systemtap.

@Chuck - depends on the requirements - many times pre-written utilties may contain more functionalilty than needed ... sometimes that is good ... sometimes that is bad or not needed

Iron

Correction:  If the driver works for you, don't rewrite it.

Iron

SystemTap might be useful for a quick set of tests. There may be instances where a kernel module will be more useful to get specific data, though.

Beats me.  If you are modifying the kernel or writing a driver, writing another kernel module isn't that hard.

Iron

it looks easier to use systemtap.  you can quickly do some debugging.  however, it might not get you what you want.

Iron

Since this is my first exposure to this topic, it is too soon to tell. 

 

Iron

System module would be easier (embedded ARM), as its less work than getting system tap cross complied and setup.

Iron

it probably depend on the actual task. I imagine me using both in the future.

Iron

it seems to be easier to start with pre-built tools, then expand with experience.

Iron

never used system tap

 

Iron

@Chuck: easier to use SystemTap - only write a loadable kernel module when needed.

Iron

If the driver works for you, do rewrite it.

Iron

Is there any reason for the 'hald(2360) open ("/dev/hdc" ....) line to be there 3 times (in slide 15) ?

Iron

Would depend on the complexity of the original driver...

 

Iron

what was that url for the stap tutorial?

Iron

arm on am embeded platform

 

Iron

Yes, I have been running a Linux at home since about 1996.

No, I have not recompiled Linux from revised sources, but have done so with reconfigured options without revisiong sources.

 

Iron

I build the kernel for a custom board (ARM).

 

Iron

someone mentioned several docs/books yesterday - included one to IBM Redbook about System Tap:   SystemTap: Instrumenting the Linux Kernel for Analyzing Performance and Functional Problems
http://www.redbooks.ibm.com/abstracts/redp4469.html

AYE, x86, PowerPC, ARM (Openmoko, Beagleboard xM, iMX53). Using Openembedded as the Linux distribution (Angstrom & Poky), also Android (cupcake and Froyo on Openmoko, and the newest ones on the Freescale and TI boards). The PowerPC was on a Xilinx Virtex II FPGA

Iron

Looks like the chat is dropping messages again (can't keep up with all the answers whenever there is a question to the audience)

Iron

Have not built/loaded kernel

Iron

I did embeded Linux for ARM, Freescale and MIPS

 

Iron

Did similar thing on motorolla microcontroller i.e programming interrupts

 

Iron

I have using SDCard and also etherboot

Iron

compiled and loaded many -- can't remember all versions ... Slackware SuSe, embedded, Ubuntu variants

Iron

I have, but it was 10+ years ago  (built Android kernel 6 months or so ago, but never loaded it onto a machine)

 

I have compiled and loaded a kernel only on a small embedded platform.

Iron

yes, character driver to Fedora4 before

x86 and lotsa ARMs.

Iron

drivers, modules - all the time

I have built and loaded kernel modules

Yes, I have modified existing drivers.

Iron

I've modified, compiled, loaded, etc Linux kernel modules on x86 and MIPS

Iron

I have built kernel modules, but not recently.

Iron

NO, have not done any of that.

Iron

@Chuck - never compiled/loaded kernel source

Iron

Not yet, gathering infor to do just that.

Iron

Yes, that's what I do.

Iron

embedded linux on PowerPC

Iron

@Chuck: I have not compiled or loaded a kernel module on any platform.

Iron

I do.  I recompiled mine this AM.

Iron

Sure, compiled / loaded tons of modules.

Iron

...about a bazillion times...

 

Iron

yes on an arm platform

 

Iron

I've done a few modules...

Iron

The memory is virtual addresses.

 

Does the kprobes require GPL license?

Iron

@MIKE: with this jprobe mechanism, are we actually inspecting a thread address space in real memory address or virtual?

Iron

@john@bluesuncorporation.com: Your hyperlink to The PTR Group worked perfectly for me. I actually clicked the hyperlink you provided in this chat window and it immediately took me to the PTR Group website. Could your IT organization somehow be blocking it?

Iron

Hmm.  www.theptrgroup.com works for me

Iron

@Mike - where is the do_fork() function being called

Iron

The speaker said his web site was www.theptrgroup.com but it does not respond...

@MIKE: can any of this material be tested for learning purposes with the busybox kernel under QEMU?

Iron

running house network router/firewall/bridge on Linux, a few desktops

Iron

And my iMX, Beagleboard and Openmoko Phone :)

Iron

I am fairly new to linux myself, but have it on a virtual machine for our website. 

Iron

Ubuntu installed on a laptop

Iron

and several Android phones

several Linux systems - other than unreachable (e.g. TV, Blueray/DVD players, printers, etc) - several dev systems (Ubuntu), mostly virtual machines, also router, Patriot Memory Box Office (media player), and several unRAID systems

I'm running linux @ home on routers (1 ap, 2 bridge routers), tablet (android), smartphone (android), and laptop (ubuntu).  I think directv receivers also uses linux and Tivo too.

Iron

Have Linux under Android devices. Maybe other devices I am not aware of.  Don't have a PC running Linux - yet.

Iron

I assume that I have them in wireless router, cable devices, Blue Ray DVD. For now they are appliences not development tools or useable for general purpose computing work.

OSX, Fedora, Ubuntu, Android, TV, Router,

Iron

I had a Linux Distribution running on my last PC, but it's out of order and I didn't find the time to setup Linux on the new PC

Iron

My laptop is Linux (Ubunto). I expect that my Netgear router is running Linux as well as my Roku box. Perhaps even my TV and AV receiver, BD player , etc.

Iron

Yes I have. also ubuntu on my PC

Iron

Cable DVR runs Linux.  Probably other embedded Linux instances.  Have Beaglebone, and laptop running Linux.

Iron
@AlanJayWeiner Thanx for the link
Iron

Running Fedora as a VM under VirtualBox

Iron

I have a router, kinkdle, and a android tablet

samsung tv and linksys dsl modem.  and media server, xbmc, desktop, laptop

Iron

I do have Ubuntu 10.04 running during this course. Perhaps the WiFi router as well. 

Iron

Lots of Linux at home:  embedded, virtual machines, laptops, and desktops.

Iron

@Chuck - have installed Ubutu on PC and there is probably one running on FIOS box (not sure). not sure of anything else

Iron

Yes, on our PC, plus of course in some embedded devices

Iron

no awareness of linux on my devices, although adroid uses linux kernel, lots of tablet devices here.

Iron

Linux @ Home - 3 x86 PCs + various embedded

Iron

desktop and embedded devices

 

Iron

Got a Roku box and a D-Link router.

 

Iron

And 2 Android phones

Iron

SuSe 3 sys plus embedded plus others + GPS Linux in Garmin

Iron

Yes, I have Linux systems running here.

@Chuck - aware of multiple... some commercial, some installed/maintained by me...

Iron

Actually they're 3. One running XBMC, An LAMP server and a Development PC

Iron

Yes. I have linux running at home.

Iron

Yup, Blue Ray player.

 

Iron

2 desktop computers, a router, a Roku, ...

 

Iron

Used Linux for embeeded projects

Iron

I have a number of linux sytems @ home

Iron

@Charles, presentation text has been running into the slide footer last three days. Difficult to read. Slightly smaller font would not be a problem and would make the last line or two readable. Content is great, would just like to read it all. Thx.

Iron

My home mail and web servers run on Linux...

Iron

ubuntu on laptop beside XP

Iron

No desktop Linux at home.  My router is Linux.

Iron

I use Gentoo for home desktop and Kubuntu for workstation.

yes, although probably not aware of all

Iron

yes, I have linux running at home.

Iron

roughly 10-15 Linux systens running at home.

Iron

I have at least 3 or 4 linux devices at home

 

Iron

I have Fedora 17  in my home. Its really great.

Iron

I have Linux running @ home

Iron

Have a few Linux systems at home...  desktop and embedded...

Iron

@Chuck: have Linux running at home

Iron

I do and Linux is in routers and DVD players.

Iron

probably one in the wireless router

looks like a dropped post, audio Ok here

Iron

I can see the power of "punching holes" between kernal and user space.....but what are some of the dangers?

Iron

audio has been loud and clear from the beginning

Iron

everybody okay with the audio?

Blogger

@LevitonDave - https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Kernel/Compile/

I am unable to download the slide prresentatation and the audio has stopped for some unknown reason.

Iron

slide number?

Sorry i am late

 

Iron

What happens with mode bits if using a FS using ACL?

Iron

@MKE: what is a simple cmd I can issue wuehn we get the 'debugfs' prompt?

Iron

Have built 2.4 and 2.6 kernels for x86 on x86 and on x86 for MIPS and ARM targets.

Iron

I built kernel from LFS source. It was painful.

 

Iron

I have rebuilt the Kernel once, just for fun :)

Iron

have used linux but never rebuilt kernels.

Where do we get the steps to rebuild the kernal for Umbunto/xumbuntu?

built the kernel many years ago (many, many...)  but not in the past years   (except a bit of Android building)

Not really necessary (or desireable) these days on many distributions -- e.g. SuSe

Iron

I've rebuilt the kernel numerous times in Gentoo (which is why I switched to Ubuntu).

Iron

I did a few time back in the biginings of Linux: it was Slackware that I used that time with 20+ mini flop disks kind of distribution.

Iron

yes but without really understanding kernel configuration options

Iron

Used to build Unix kernels 30 years ago! Have not with Linux.

Iron

Yes, I've rebuilt the kernel.  And, yes rebuilding Ubuntu kernels is a bit tedious.

Iron

Once, many years ago.

Iron

no rebuilding, no linux experience

Iron

yes for embedded linux using ltib

 

Iron

rebuild kernel froms ource?  too many times to count  :)

Hello, I didn't rebuild a Linux Kernel fom sources.

Iron

Not yet but getting ready to.

Iron

@LevitonDave - ahh, that pile of hardware in the basement...  :)

yes, done it many times

never, but expect to do it in the future

Iron

I rebuild the kernel

Iron

Did it all the time when I was using Gentoo.

Iron

@Chuck - never rebuilt a Linux kernel

Iron

Rebuilt Kernels many times -- PC's through embedded

Iron

@Chuck: I have built the Linux kernel from source

Iron

Rebuilt Kernel - Yes

Iron

Yes.  Only once today though.

Iron

I've built the kernel from source literally thousands of times :)

Iron

I have, many times.

Iron

@Chuck - done that several times...

Iron

Have rebuilt... and cross compiled....

Iron

Sure, rebuilt kernels often

Iron

yes, I have rebuilt many a linux kernel

 

Iron

@MIKE: what is this GUI you have in your slides when you say things like configuring debugfs?

Iron

@Mike:  How do I run Kernel Configurator?  Looked on Ubuntu, couldn't find it.

Iron

@AlanJayWeiner - Looking for uses of older PCs at home that I can climb the learning curve on Linux independent of the delays of an old PC truing to run the behemuth form Readmond.

chin from Minga Electronics

Iron

hi from Ottawa Canada

Iron

my Ubuntu has debugfs turned on

Iron

@LevitonDave - VirtualBox or VMware is a great way to play with this stuff (unless you need specific real hardware...)   I use VMware Workstation extensively.

I've missed the first minute of today's session... who is the host today?

Iron

a belated greetings from Needham Ma

we are on slide 3

Iron

Hi Chuck, Mike, and all! From Holland Michigan.

Iron

Hi everyone the session is now live...

Hi Michael - it has been fun so far. I need to resurect some older PCs to be able to play with this stuff in a dedicated manner.

Hi am I early No sound yet

Hi from Albuquerque, NM

Iron

Hi everyone!  The session will start in 2 minutes...

 

Ah yes, Vancouver at 73.  Makes me miss WA state.  Too hot here in TX

Iron

I miss the Delaware/Maryland beaches

 

Gold

73 F - Oh man, I miss the North Shore.

Iron

Hi from Newport, RI

 

Iron

Hello from Sunny SE Lake Simcoe in Ontario

Iron

Hi from Laguna Beach.  Highs about 80.

Iron

Hi again from Vancouver.  Highs of about 73F all week :)

Iron

@earlmit - how is the drive going? :)

@earlmit, -60C, that's a winter day here in Edmonton!... OK including the windchill.

Iron

hello from Ottawa, On.  sunny 81F

Iron

Doug here from Silver City, NM, where it's almost noon and 87 degrees F

Iron

Greeting again from Mars Earthlings

The temperature here is a nice warm minus 60 degrees Celsius.

 

Iron

@Michael, Will we talk about kernel memory allocation during this week?
Is it just malloc or is it fixed max size or is it maloc in userspace and a poiner or..?
I'm thinking if iimplementing buffers that are allowed to vary alot in size.

Iron

Hi All, From California

Iron

hello from HOT AND sunny MIAMI !!!

Hello, from British Columbia

Iron

Good morning from sunny Edmonton, AB. Already 28C/82F in my backyard with the promise of another severe thunderstorm that terrifies my dog.

Iron

Hello All,

From Rochester, NY, USA.  Another great weather day!

Iron

Hi from comfortable Portlandia (low 80s/upper 70's)

Hello from Richmond, TX

Iron

hello to all from hot hot hot Dallas ... on the way to another 100+F day

Iron

yeep! mhayden almost friday! time for some margaritas  or right from the bottle  :)

Iron

Good afternoon folks.

Iron

I prefer single malt scotch

hello rodan1984. send tequilla.  ;-)

 

Iron

Good evening from a rainy Lidingö, Sweden @ 7.22pm.

Iron

Hello everybody from Guadalajara, jalisco land of tequila and mariachi in Mexico  :)

 

Iron

Greetings All!  The session will begin at 1400 EDT.  See you there...

Good day all from Colorado Springs, CO

Iron

Good Morning Bill from Mobile, AL

Good morning/afternoon from Sunny San Jose, CA. 60 °F right now and it will hit 88 °F @ 3:00 P.M.

 

Iron


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