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Charles Murray
User Rank
Blogger
Re: EVs with more yielding Batteries
Charles Murray   7/17/2012 6:47:31 PM
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Thanks for doing the math, Mirox. The Wh/mile really tells the story. Tesla has done a good job with the Model S by going after the details.  

Rob Spiegel
User Rank
Blogger
Re: Secret sauce
Rob Spiegel   7/16/2012 12:23:31 PM
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That's quite impressive, Chuck. As for charging these vehicles, is the infrastructure beginning to build out for charging these vehicles on the road? Since the charge would take some time, I would guess the infrastructure would be more than a simple outlet at a gas station.

MIROX
User Rank
Platinum
Re: EVs with more yielding Batteries
MIROX   7/13/2012 7:56:20 PM
Here is the Math:

 

Vehicle

KWh/range

Wh/mile

Weight

TESLA S

 85/300

283.3

4,647

LEAF

24/73

328.8

3,500

VOLT

16/37

432.4

3,520

VOLT*

8/37

216.2

3,520

OKA

4/24

166.7

1,530

 

To get the 100,000 miles 10 years Battery life VOLT only really uses about 1/2 the Battery capacity that is never discharges below 20% and never charges above 80% if they would the gange would be more like 62 miles !

And this is the excuse NISSAN uses in theri legalese:

 

GRADUAL CAPACITY LOSS

The Lithium-ion battery (EV battery), like all lithium-ion

batteries, will experience gradual capacity loss with time

and use. Loss of battery capacity due to or resulting

from gradual capacity loss is NOT covered under this

warranty. See your OWNER'S MANUAL for important

tips on how to maximize the life and capacity of the

"Lithium-ion battery."

 

LITHIUM-ION BATTERY

This warranty does not cover damage or failures resulting

from or caused by:

Exposing a vehicle to ambient temperatures above

120F (49C) for over 24 hours.

 Storing a vehicle in temperatures below -13F (-25C)

for over seven days.

 

Leaving your vehicle for over 14 days where the

lithium-ion battery reaches a zero or near zero state

of charge.

 Charging the lithium-ion battery full on a daily basis

despite the lithium-ion battery keeping a high state

 of charge level (98-100%).

 Neglecting to follow correct charging procedures.

 Use of incompatible charging devices.

 Consequential damage caused by the failure to repair

an existing problem.

 *********

Wonder if every LEAF Owner reads this BEFORE buying one of them ?

 

 

 

 

MIROX
User Rank
Platinum
Range v. Daily Use
MIROX   7/13/2012 7:36:40 PM
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GM R&D and Research people have over the year spent more time and effort on probing the wants and habbits of driving populus, granted not all their finds have been properly utilized for their own benefit, but here and there just like all the features shown in Autorama, have eventually surfaced in one way or another, or just because other MFG had to follow the lead of the # 1 vehicle producer in the World for most of the years of their existence.

One not widely publicized Research was no HOW BIG a gas tank a car needs ?

Done way back in 1948 and the conclusion was 15 gallons at AWG MPG of 12 to 15.

Why because that way people would only fuel up once a week !

Reason if the tank was only to hold enough gasoline for a daily drive  (20 to 32 miles in those days) people would realize HOW MUCH it costs them to drive !!!

Thet was by GM perceived as NEGATIVE - i.e. people would buy fewer cars....

What was Gasoline then ??? like 26 cents or so ??? (Minimum Wage 40 cents)

But the resoning was that if the Gas is bought once a week and once a week pay day was normal then, people would do that and not run out of gas in between pay days (no CC then, Cash was the only way to buy fuel).

 

So most cars even today have 12 to 15 Gallon fuel tank capacity no matter what is their MPG, etc.

Someting gets established and it stay that way, and but few ever know why - but EV proponents now want people to plug-in every day.

Having people fuel up every day and reducing gas tanks to 1 to 2 gallons in all vehicles would save the nation billions of gallons of fuel  - just imagine the fuel saving by not hauling about on average 5 to 7 gallons + associated fuel tank size on 245,000,000 vehicles in use in USA !!!

Lets say that is weight diet of 12,005,000,000 - making US fleet over 12 billion pounds lighter would for sure make dent in fuel consumption !

 

Plus the daily awareness of cost of driving would make people to think twice about the vehicle choice and the need to really drive somewhere on a moments whim.

 

Now compare EV where the Battey weight is the same sans a gram or two between FULL and EMPTY that is hauling about a dead weight 100% of the time, a sure way to "improve" range, but kill the MPGe.........

Charles Murray
User Rank
Blogger
Re: EVs with more yielding Batteries
Charles Murray   7/13/2012 5:33:24 PM
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You're right,Mydesign, power and energy are the big issues for EV batteries. That said, Tesla is squeezing a lot of range out of its cars. The Model S gets about 300 miles of range out of an 85 kWh battery. By comparison, the Nissan Leaf gets 73 miles of range (EPA rating) out of a 24-kWH battery, and the Chevy Volt (which has an IC engine on board) gets 37 miles from 16 kWh. I'll let you do the math.

Charles Murray
User Rank
Blogger
Re: Secret sauce
Charles Murray   7/13/2012 5:28:56 PM
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Rob: It's fast. Tesla lists the Model S' top speed at 125 mph and says it goes from 0 to 60 mph in 5.6 seconds.

Rob Spiegel
User Rank
Blogger
Re: Secret sauce
Rob Spiegel   7/13/2012 1:30:19 PM
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Are there speed limitations as well, Chuck? I know GreenTech's MyCar will only get to 35 to 45 mph. I would imagine Tesla is a completely different story.

Mydesign
User Rank
Platinum
EVs with more yielding Batteries
Mydesign   7/13/2012 12:45:45 AM
NO RATINGS
1 saves
Charles, one of the major drawbacks with EVs is its low mileage and power. Most of the vehicles are yielding only 85-100 miles on a full charge and it can be come down further when load increases. So I think everybody is eagerly looking for new batteries which can yield more mileage.

Charles Murray
User Rank
Blogger
Re: Secret sauce
Charles Murray   7/12/2012 10:00:13 PM
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Rob: I would presume the price alone takes the Model S out of the the second-car realm. Most consumers can't afford a $50,000 second car, let alone an $80K or $100K second car. Price aside, though, I would presume the 300-mile range will appeal to more people who want to use it as their main form of transportation. Those consumers are the ones who plan on driving no more than about 130-140 miles from home (assuming they're making a round trip). As for passenger weight...I have no idea how many miles would be lost off the range if you have four big passengers in there. Range calculations are already highly theoretical, and the weight of passengers adds one more variable to the equation.

jackiecox
User Rank
Platinum
Re: Tesla has no big secrets in the Model S, except...
jackiecox   7/12/2012 9:33:30 PM
crash tests, on what ?, showroom models, assembled in a garage,  from parts made in finland .

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