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Thank you Jon, very good observation of dev kits, it is helpful enough to understand that there are non-avoidable pitfalls

Helpful videos in setup are always welcome, they do save time and provide good reference in case when something going wrong

errors in reference documents in form of typing errors

Mostly, working with on chip memory

Very nice presentation

thanks

Another nice transition however you are coordinating the questions to the audience its working keep up the good work

based on the current application I am working toward I need a lot of external storage 

to store an evolving map of the enviroment allong with logging of a number of critical parameters

Based on yesterdays lecture this one should be a good one also

Friday Catching up fast

I use you tube to gather information, but there are not enough available yet.  Howtos related to hardware are extremely helpful.

Platinum

Great review.  I'd like to evaluate the Atmel brand myself.  Thanks!

Platinum

On a Win7 pc the usb driver likely loads and works without issues. I've been using the STK600 (with ATmega2560) in classes at UC Irvine since January (certificate program in Embeded Systems Engineering). On Monday I start an ARM class with the Stellaris EKK-LM3S811.

Iron

Jon - Did you say Win XP for your PC. Sorry to hear that. Is FLIP specific to this dev board? AVR Studio 6 works fine with the STK600 dev board.

 

I don't know if the FLIP software works with all AVR-family processors or just some.  Thanks for the note about the STK600 board.  I have an STK500 board in my lab, so when I have some "extra" time, I'll see if Studio 6 works with it, too.  Great tip.

Blogger

"cheap" solution for a missing DLL... just shell out $200 for a JTAG?

 

It depends on how you value your time.  If it takes you two days at $500/day (salary, benefits, overhead...) to figure out how to do something ($1000) or $200 to do it now, which do you choose?  I used the JTAGICE3 because I have one in my lab.  I did not buy it only because a USB connection wouldn't work.  If I didn't have it, I'd contact the Atmel tech-support people and work through the problem over several days.  Someone noted there's a new driver for the Xplained board.  Things might be easier now.

Blogger

BOOT LOADER: What kind of code is this boot loader capable of loading: custom code, OSs, ...?

 

The bootloader simply takes your compiled code and loads it into the flash memory.  The boot loader doesn't care whether you load an application, OS, or debug utility.  Of course you must compile your code for the given processor's machine-language code.  That's what the Atmel and 3rd-party tools.  If you have an OS in source code and it's compatible with the processor capabilities, you can compile it and load it.

Blogger

What about documetaion for Fijutsu [Fujitsu] micros ? compared to Atmel.

 

I haven't heard a peep from Fujirsu about MCUs in a long time.

Blogger

@Rob, I really appreciated the new method where you signal Jon that you have a question and he gives you the go-ahead.  The old method of interrupting was really jarring.

 

Thanks for your comment.  We realized that after the first session in which the flow got very choppy and even jarring for Rob and me.

Blogger

@Jon - Looks like the Atmel site for this board has link for new driver .inf file for XP for virtual COM port. This may resolve your issues.

Thanks for that info.  I'll check it out when I get back to my lab bench next week.

Blogger

@luizcosta: I suspect that you can participate in DKCEC using an iPad. Certainly the chat widget should. Not sure about the downloaded PowerPoint slides though. Why not try it on an archived session just to be sure that the blogtalkradio audio widget loads and works correctly?

Iron

Thanks Jon, interesting session

Iron

Thanks everyone for participating. Your comments and questions make this a much better program. Jon will come back to answer any additional questions, so feel free to post any more questions you may have.

Blogger

@Jon - Looks like the Atmel site for this board has link for new driver .inf file for XP for virtual COM port. This may resolve your issues.

Iron

Thank you for a great session!

Time for a lunch break.  I'll come back and answer more questions afterward. Thanks for joining us for Session 3. --Jon

Blogger

RE: AVRDRAGON -- from Atmel site: The board (today's subject) is powered by the USB cable and equipped with the standard 10-pin JTAG header that connects to the full range of AVR debuggers.

Iron

most projects have used in-circuit serial programming, not JTAG

Many of those serial-programmed devices use the standard JTAG signals, although they might not call their programming port a JTAG connection.  JTAG is pretty much standard as far as signals and timing go, but companies use different communication protocols.

Blogger

(How come two "howdy folks?")   :)

+1   "For eval use what comes with the kit - if the kit doesn't work I will probably rule them out due to the risk of support issues."     :)

Can I use ATAVRDRAGON to debugging the ATXMEGAAA3BU? I have on ATAVRDAGON. Thanks.

 

I don't know, check with Atmel.

Blogger

For eval use what comes with the kit - if the kit doesn't work I will probably rule them out due to the risk of support issues.

You just get the Atmel Xplained board.  Then you download the software and examples.  Easy and straightforward.  It's better to download software than to trust an enclosed CD-ROM will provide the lastet versions.

Blogger

Are AVR tools compatible with other JTAG tools (like Segger pods)?

 

I would bet they are because they would have to provide the same information to a target MCU via its JTAG pins.  BUT, you would need specific USB drivers for each pod type.  Your best bet: ask the software and hardware manufacturers about compatibility.

Blogger

Thanks Jon and Rob, a good session today. See all tomorrow.

Iron

Does anyone know whether or not one can participate of this sessions on an iPad? What is required?

Iron

Which IAR variant is needed to support Atmel?

IAR Embedded Workbench for Atmel AVR: http://www.iar.com/en/Products/IAR-Embedded-Workbench/AVR/

Blogger

AVR dragon is $50 , can we use to debug XMEGA ?

any recommendation for a kit for a beginner to get started with?

 

The Atmel kit should give people a good start.  See my comment a few answers below this one for three other possibilities.

Blogger

@caa028 - good quality video especially for introductory is good. I guess I have tried too many uTube instructions that are poor quality, hard to hear and poorly organized and presented. found most of it to be waste of time.

 

I agree.  I rely mainly on videos on vendor web sites.  They provide useful information, whereas many YouTube videos lack information and provide no context.

Blogger

Jon, how long do think it would take you to get this working without the JTAG?

 

Well, probably a couple of days after submitting a request for help via the Atmel online support form.  The problem could be on my PC rather than the software, although I have used plenty of USB connections with other dev kits without problems.  My PC is a fairly "clean" Win XP box that recently had a thorough clean out and reinstallation of Win XP with all updates.  So, who knows.  If I value my time at $250 per day, it would have been less expensive to buy the JTAGICE3.  Then if I didn't use it again I could give it away or pass it on to a colleague.  Time is money.

Blogger

looks like another dropped post.

@Mr.E, an Arduino project that caught my eye for beginners was for a bipolar and CMOS transistor curve tracer. It is complete with circuit schematic, arduino code, processing code for the PC XY display and code for an open source version of matlab called scilab.

A really great project that can alsio be turned into a cheap analog signature analyzer.

Iron

@JON: Can the boot loader be compared to GRUB? What are the imitations of that, it one wishes to use it to load a give OS?

 

I don't know because I haven't used the GRUB software.  For others interested, visit: http://www.gnu.org/software/grub/

Blogger

The question is my ATAVRDRAGON can be used to debugging this kit?

 

Iron

Thanks Jon.  Great use of pictures and screen shots.

Iron

If you are completely new to microcontrollers, you might start with an Arduino Uno (uses an Atmel chip) or Digilent Uno32 (uses a Microchip MCU).  I also recommend the ARM mbed, which uses an NXP ARM microcontroller.  All three have free tools and a lot of online support and backup info.  I don't think most engineers would have problems using this SAtmel kit, though.

Blogger

THANKS JOH FOR PRESENTATION AND SEE YOU TOMORROW.

IS THERE ANY CHANCE THAT ATMEL RESOLVE THE ISSUE WITH USB CONNECTION?

 

Iron

what is the $200 equipment that is needed for $40 kit?

I used an Atmel JTAGICE3 pod, which I already had in my lab.  You don't necessarily need this if you can use the boot loader already programmed into the MCU.  I suspect my problem might arise from something I did incorrectly during setup and the Atmel tech-support people likely could have helped me work it out.  Because I had a JTAGICE3 handy, I used it rather than spend more time with the kit.  You don't need this pod to use the kit.

Blogger

Thanks Rob and Jon great info.

What about custom display on LCD for logos or icons?

Iron

Thanks Rob - doing good as a moderator!

Iron

thanks Jon, another great presentation

Iron

Yeah another great lecture from Jon. Good work!!!

Iron

@danlafleur: Yes, Arduino is cool. One of my colleagues has done some really great stuff fast and cheap with them.

Iron

Thanks a lot Jon and Rob. It is a excellent lecture!

Iron

Thanks - meetings will preclude interactive chat - will come back to review responses to posted questions.

 

Thanks Jon - great session today.

Iron

Thanks, very good with indepth details

Thanks Rob & Jon, good lecture
Iron

I will agree with JM Ashcraft. Any suggestions for the new beginners? How we can use these tool in the real applications

 

Iron

Jon, Thanks for a great Lecture.

Iron

Thank you Jon! Excellent lecture.

Iron

what is the $200 equipment that is needed for $40 kit?

Thanks, TH

Iron

I found that Arduino kits and open source sw is an easy and inexpensive way to get started.

Iron

thanks for great presentation

@JON: Can the boot loader be compared to GRUB? What are the imitations of that, it one wishes to use it to load a give OS?

Iron

Jon, how long do think it would take you to get this working without the JTAG?

Iron

We're now on slide 31.

Blogger

@caa028 - good quality video especially for introductory is good. I guess I have tried too many uTube instructions that are poor quality, hard to hear and poorly organized and presented. found most of it to be waste of time.

Iron

any recommendation for a kit for a beginner to get started with?

We're now on slide 30.

Blogger

We're now on slide 29.

Blogger

Videos are very helpfull. Usually I use.

Iron
Videos are ok as a further reference, in support of written documentation, showing examples, etc.
Iron

@jl - videos are not substitute for documentation... but I seem to like the videos (often audio with slidepack synchronized) better than just a separate audio stream...

Iron

We're now on slide 28.

Blogger

We're now on slide 27.

Blogger

rarely used videos.

Iron

Mixed feelings on video. Some are good at training. Others seem to have low information density and you might have to watch most of a long one to see if they cover the topic you want.

Iron

We're now on slide 26. 

Blogger

short videos are OK, but I prefer written or printed info with drawings and diagrams. probably has a lot to do with how I learned the technology years ago.

Iron

@Rob - videos seem to contain very little pertinent information. written and complete docs are more useful. Have never seen a video that has been indexed (like web sites) so that you can skip from one part to another to drill down to the specifics

Iron

I would use videos if it helped

I have used videos, especially for initial setup, hardware setup and options, as well as SW. -Grant

Iron

instruction short videos on specific topics are useful.

Iron

I view those provided on Youtube quite fequently.

Iron

We're now on slide 25.

Blogger

@Rob - yes, I use short product videos, long traning videos, lectures etc... quite often...

Iron

Which IAR variant is needed to support Atmel?

Videos are explicetly blocked by corporate IT. Useful videos are getting started and oriented with tools.

other than showing physical connections, videso usually not much help.

 

Iron

I often watch training videos

Iron

@Rob: a video presentation of how to do something physical (such as connecting a system) is often very helpful as a supplement to written instructions.

Iron

Only rarely use videos. Mostly for in-depth tutorials.

Iron

Only for specific topics

 

Iron

Yes, I have used Short Videos for Reference. Step by Step guides seem to work the best for me.

Iron

Yes, use videos, if can find specific ones that apply.

Iron

I seldom use any videos.

Iron

My audio started 5 min after, but it is clear without on and off.

Iron

We're now on slide 24.

Blogger

Usually have a good audio..but today it was flaky and now it ok now.

Iron

@Don H - you could watch them from home...

Iron

Late again, but I'm here.

Iron

audio here has pops, clicks and sometimes a slight warble.

Iron

Videos are not helpful since they are blocked at work due to bandwidth issues (just look at the number of people not getting audio today).

Iron

audio is clear here

 

audio must be dependent on your local internet connection. No issues for me here in CA

Iron

no problems with audio today for me...

Iron

Thanks..it is back now.

Iron

when in doubt, refresh

We're now on slide 23.

Blogger

I have audio. It's clear.

Iron

Not sure why there are audio problems.

Blogger

Are AVR tools compatible with other JTAG tools (like Segger pods)?

@THasham - audio seems a little flaky today...try refresh your browser

Iron

No audio normal for me.

Iron

Audio keep cutting off on me. any idea?

Iron

We're now on slide 22.

Blogger

Agree with Dave's comment.

Iron

Thanks Jon for explaining JTAG. That would be helpful

Iron

For eval use what comes with the kit - if the kit doesn't work I will probably rule them out due to the risk of support issues.

Can I use ATAVRDRAGON to debugging the ATXMEGAAA3BU? I have on ATAVRDAGON. Thanks.

Iron

We're now on slide 21.

Blogger

Have used several JTAG debuggers from Atmel and other chip vendors. They are very powerful for the money. Used to have to pay several $K for micro ICE kits, and they only worked with a single micro part number. 

Iron

We're now on silde 20.

Blogger

I usually try breakpoints or added code to check values inregs, etc.

Iron

I generally use the USB debug interface provided on the development board

@Rob: I use a programming pod for development. However, when evaluating a chip I expect the tools to work as advertised and would invest more time in locating the missing DLL and alerting the manufacturer of the issue so they could resolve it.

Iron

@Rob - PICIT2/PICIT3 (cheap) for Microchip, JTAG and on-board programmer for Ti, on-board programmer for STM, etc...

Iron

If I cannot get the development kit to work as advertised, I generally give up on the emulators and start breadboarding.  If I have not decided on which MCU to use, this may have just been dropped.

Iron

It's best to have a good pod for use with the processor you end up desinging in your product. However to check out multiple vendor's options, easy and cheap is best.

Iron

We're now on slide 19.

Blogger

We normally get a JTag Device/Dedicated Programmer to speed up our Debugging. It normally is worth the additional Price if we are designing a number of boards with the same chip. 

Iron

Not unless it gets past the eval stage.

Iron

most projects have used in-circuit serial programming, not JTAG

Iron

I'd prefer to ue a JTAG anyway

 

Iron

This would probably deter me from evaluating

Iron

@Rob - would stray away from using a $200+ device for a $40 MCU. would use another method to debug

Iron

use JTAGICE-MK11 can I use this ?

JTAG interface works well

Iron

yes, used the debug

Iron

No, I haven't used this type of pricey "debuggers.

Iron

We're now on slide 18.

Blogger

can a JTAG device be used with different MCU, or are they specific to a vendors MCU

Iron
But a manufacturer should not be forcing you to purchase another $200 item to make their product work...I would just not buy their boards in the first place...
Iron

OK, refreshed browser and no have audio

Iron

Jon - Did you say Win XP for your PC. Sorry to hear that. Is FLIP specific to this dev board? AVR Studio 6 works fine with the STK600 dev board.

Iron

We're now on slide 16.

Blogger

"cheap" solution for a missing DLL... just shell out $200 for a JTAG...

Iron

I am showing bufereing in the radio widget but no audio

Iron

How compatible are these development kits with Windows 7? (Corporate requires us to use Windows 7)

BOOT LOADER: What kind of code is this boot loader capable of loading: custom code, OSs, ...?

Iron

We're now on slide 15.

Blogger

did we loose audio

Iron

mostly outdated docs and errors

 

Iron

Incomplete documents is the most common document problem.  Somtimes the information can be found in documents for similar products.

Iron

Don H. -- "In general" documentation problems or errors.

Blogger

All of the Above for missing Documents, One of the more annoying issue is when a Documtent is not maintained with a note/error found with a chip.

Iron

Many times - the information is there but is poorly organized or a key piece of information is a small note in an unrelated area.

For IDEs the compiler manual and configuration guide is also a big plus.

It is frustrating when documentation is not updated to match hardware pgrades
Iron

One big doc problem is indexing or searchability of the docs.  Often the needed info is there but hard to find. Also errors, outdated or missing docs. 

Iron

outdated docs and errors

Iron

@Rob - missing information, especially device wiring or connection examples for setting up differnt applications and the devices/sensors for that specific app

Iron

irrelevant, and often conflicting, info pasted from a doc for another device.

Iron

lack of practical examples in the form of diagrams

Iron

EXTERNAL MEMORY: What type of connection for the memory?

Iron

Are you asking about problems with ATMEL or in general regarding documentation?

Iron

What about documetaion for Fijutsu micros ? compared to Atmel.

Contradicting documentation or docs that don't match the hardware revision

Iron

@Rob - missing docs, outdated docs, errors, etc...

Iron

We're now on slide 13.

Blogger

We're now on slide 12.

Blogger

Danlafleur -- I meant external to the microcontroller.

Blogger

Rob - We have used file based storage for configuration for complex distributed systems (as much as 4 GB)

We're now on slide 11.

Blogger

So far I used uo to 250K.

Iron

question Rob, did you mean external storage to the microcontroller or something off-board and possibly removeable?

Iron

We're now on slide 10.

Blogger

Rob,

It's a trade off and depends on speed and what the data is.  As always the application  and task at hand dictates.

Iron

We're now on slide nine.

Blogger

In a few Products, We end up with Data Logging products that store Parameters for Reporting. We normally use storage in the size of 2k to 512k 

Iron

yes we do uyse external memory for data storage and temporary firmware update binary. size is about the flash size 256k to 512k

Iron

Usually use the internal EEPROM on atmel atmega chips. size varies for lookup tables.

Iron

In depends on your program and application.

Iron

1MB is usually sufficient

Iron

My data storage needs vary from 10 bytes to multiple megabytes.

Iron

Some of my projects use external memory. Usually serial EEPROM, 2-64 KB.

Iron

Yes, depends on application 1 + meg.

Iron

We're now on slide eight.

Blogger

Yes , 128k, for configuration

External memory such as a CF or other flash memory is used for running a OS based system and for portability of data.

Iron

Yes, some applications need external memory for data storage, less than 1Mbit.

Iron

We're now on slide seven.

Blogger

Data logging/Corrections/Transidential conversions (power to Voltage).
Yes - primarily data logging - requrements are driven by system balancing

We use external EEPROM, about 500kbytes

Iron

Have not needed external data storage yet for my applications.

Iron

not common for our products to have external storage. all is on-board.

Iron

Try to keep things on board if possible

Iron

We're now on slide seven.

Blogger

Yes, around 1MB is normal

Iron

LEDs and LCD are very usfull for testing the program.

Iron

I have small aps and just use on board flash.

Iron

I prefer to not have the additional BOM cost of external me

mory

Iron

@Rob - using external memory and amount depends on the app

Iron

@Rob - yes, specific amount depends on the application

Iron

Yes, SPI flash 2M bytes

Iron

We're now on slide six.

Blogger

built in LCD is pretty cool on these dev kits

Iron

Good Old Internet, Failing right before the meeting. Hello to all.

 

Iron

We're now on slide five.

Blogger

Good afternnon everyone

Iron

atmel mega chip is what is used on the Arduino board

Iron

We're now on slide four.

Blogger

We're now on slide three.

Blogger

Hi Rob, Jon, and everyone.

Iron

Rob - thanks for keeping us up on the slide numbers.

We're now on slide two.

Blogger

Good afternoon, Jon.

Iron
frickin' heat wave here....
Iron

@billT - spent 20 years there (HP/Agilent)

Hi, from London, Ontario
Iron

@billT - Where in Spokane?

Hello from Spokane Wa.

Iron

overcast and cool here in northern alberta. won't get the full effect of the longest day of the year, sunset shortly after 10pm today.

Iron

92degF & 44%, winds 15MHP (gusts to 23) in Vermont

Iron

@Rob, I really appreciated the new method where you signal Jon that you have a question and he gives you the go-ahead.  The old method of interrupting was really jarring.

Iron

Cntl-A->Cntl-C prior to hitting post saves lots of retyping :)

Another Hello from CA

Iron

Belay that.  Looks like the posts are just lagging something fierce.

Iron

Hello from a scorching Virginia!  Also seeing posts dropped. :-(

Iron

South Carolina T = 91 F

How nice is inyour place?

Good to have you Back Rob!

Here we go!  Hello from a scorching Virginia.  Really enjoying this lecture series.

Iron

@wpeters - what town in south texas

Iron

Hi Folks from Sunny (unusual) Portlandia

Hello from south Texas

Iron

good afternoon everybody

Hi everyone, looks like posts are still getting dropped.

Iron

Hello Jon, Hello everybody!

Iron

think its time for another starbucks coffee

Iron

good afternoon, everyone

Iron

Hello again everyone from Irvine, CA

Iron

hello rob, good to be back for todays presentation

Iron

Hi everyone!! Anotjer exciting lecture today. I am all set for it

 

Iron

Good afternoon Rob.

 

Iron

Good afternoon folks.

Iron

Hello all and happy summer solstice.

Iron

-Be sure to click 'Today's Slide Deck' under Special Educational Materials above right to download the PowerPoint for today's session.

Blogger

-The streaming audio player will appear on this web page when the show starts at 2pm eastern today. Note however that some companies block live audio streams. If when the show starts you don't hear any audio, try refreshing your browser.

Blogger

-Please join our Digi-Key Continuing Education Center LinkedIn Group at http://linkd.in/yoNGeY

Blogger


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