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Tool_maker
User Rank
Platinum
Re: Design for Assembly - NOT SERVICEABILITY
Tool_maker   7/14/2012 10:44:36 PM
NO RATINGS
About 10 years ago, when Sunbeam still made gas grills in their southwest Missouri plant, they used to regularly invite suppliers in for a "workday". The representative of the supplying companies would amn assembly lines and build Sunbeam products under normal factory conditions.  It gave both supplier and Sunbeam the opportunity to make suggestions about design, quality and manufacturability. They were worthwhile sessions and made suppliers feel like working partners.

OLD_CURMUDGEON
User Rank
Platinum
Re: 2 peas in a pod, fun talking old tools...
OLD_CURMUDGEON   6/25/2012 3:54:37 PM
NO RATINGS
OH!, you mean like a JOHN DEERE Model "M"????  Had both versions of that machine..... the wheeled tractor AND the bullsozer equivalent.  FUN little machines when building a cross-country railraod!! (Ha! Ha!)

Valve Spring compressors ....... Got TWO of them:  one for the Flathead V-8s (FORD) & one for the standard cylinder heads.  That one has the separate clamp ends for accomodating different valve diameters up to fairly good sized diesel engine cylinder heads.

Well, that 0W15 or 20 motor oil I think is very specific in its applications.  I doubt that it would be a good fit for older engines.  Just like the late model CORVETTE 350s.  The manufacturer's warranty is void IF anything other than MOBIL ONE oil is used.  CHEVROLET went so as to emboss that on the valve covers.  And, you're correct in your assumption that it's due to machining tolerances..... at least that's the advertised reason from CHEVROLET.  As far as the oil pumps being less robustly designed, I have no idea.  As much of a fanatic as I was about cars, engines, etc. decades ago, now a car is strictly an opportune piece of machinery to get me from point "A" to point "B".  Sometime life takes its toll on enthusiasm!

 

rcwithlime
User Rank
Silver
2 peas in a pod, fun talking old tools...
rcwithlime   6/25/2012 3:33:41 PM
NO RATINGS
Or the valve spring compressors, left over plastiguage, etc. When was the last time you even used your feeler guages, now that you are not adjusting points any more. I thought the reference to a timing light was very funny. Used to be, you drooled over a good timing light after trying to use the cheap junk, which you could barely see with.(again, lesser quality). I moved and going thru my stuff, I threw out the light that took me years to finally buy. Can't even find someone to give them away to. Although might be fun to hook it up to one plug and drive down the road with that flashing out the window. Probably get you arrested though. Last year I even found the small under dash mount FM converter that you hooked up to an am radio to get FM. I believe it was from Radio shack. For those that don't remember that far back, cars once came with only AM radios and only one front center mounted speaker.

As far as the 0W20 oil goes. So they need it very thin to run in cold weather. Does that mean that the car mfg's have so degraded their oil pumps that they cannot push a 10W30 in the winter or more than a 20w in the summer? Viscosity usually is associated with amount of protection. Or is it due to tighter tolerances. Probably a mixture of both, which goes back to the topic, of lesser quality.  NOW 0 viscosity for oil in a 1960's 2 cylinder Hand crank over John deer tractor, that would have come in handy.

OLD_CURMUDGEON
User Rank
Platinum
Re: Correct on govt emission requirements, complexity
OLD_CURMUDGEON   6/25/2012 2:19:50 PM
NO RATINGS
You know it's funny that you should mention tools...... I haven't been in the local SEARS store in several years.  My tool-buying days are long since done.  IF I can't fix something with the shelves full of tools that I have now, then either I call someone in to do it, or it doesn't get done!  It's just that simple.  In fact, I had a large supply of electrical & mechanical items that I gave to the fellow who cuts our lawn.  He & his son do odd jobs during the short winter here when there's no lawn maintenance required.  I also gave him two EMT benders, which I'll never use again .... 1" & 1 1/4".  You gotta be a burly, young man to heft an 1 1/4" bender!!!

And, then there's the PROTO Dwell-Tach, and the KAL EQUIP Timing Light.  I suppose IF I ever get another 1964 MUSTANG, they'll come in handy too.  OR, IF I build another '57 CHEVY with a "rat" motor, I might need the piston ring pliers, or the crankshaft timing wheel, or the valve seating tools, or the ...........  too much to mention.

You mentioned having to buy some metric sockets, wrenches, etc.  I did too.  My first car was a 1960 FORD (of GERMANY) TAUNUS.  It was a great little 3-door wagon, which got good mileage, and was extremely reliable.  No frills, that's for sure,  In fact, the base model did not include an engine oil filter adaptor.  That was an extra-cost option.  Drove it for close to 100K miles, before trading for the MUSTANG.

By the way, the new TOYOTAs use 0W20 motor oil.  YES!  I said 0, as in ZERO.  When I asked how they arrived at the "0" number, no one could answer that question.  Oh well......

 

 

rcwithlime
User Rank
Silver
Re: Correct on govt emission requirements, complexity
rcwithlime   6/25/2012 10:19:38 AM
NO RATINGS
As your tools are that old, as many of mine are as well as I acquired from estate, my dat, etc. you can see the difference in tool finish. I have worked the heck out of my tools as well. I have broken an occasional socket, stripped gears in the ratchet and have had 3  of 3/8" socket wrenches that did not "catch" correctly when new, that had to be returned and replaced in the last 3 years. Never had that issue 15 yrs ago. But I still use mine.

Unfortunately, as all vehicle mfg's have moved over to metric, I had to purchase new complete sets. Hardly use my USE ones any more. Even lawm mowers, etc are all metric. I have used my screwdrivers as prybars, as sometimes you have little choice depending on the situation. I do agree with taking care of your tools. I have a spot in my boxes for every tool, carved out in foam. I clean before returning to the drawer (OK,  except for hammers) Actually, I use my Craftsman more for the harsh abuse and leave my other brand screwdrivers for my eletrical work. My vehicles are 2 honda's and 1 Ford truck.

I hear you on the tranny fluid change. I disagree with that completely, but do recognize that the manual states the same and have had shops tell me the same thing. I just tell them to do it anyway. Last one was a flush and replacement. Every look at the new tranny filters? Most of them are just a screen. That will stop the large metal parts, but will allow the small particulates to continue to circulate. That is why many mfg's state that if you don't have the tranny flushed by 40-50K, then best not to do it as it can loosen up collected deposits of metal filings that will then let loose a short time after the flush has been completed. Hard to say if that is true. Guess it depeneds on how good a job the flush does. They are also stating extended engine oil filter replacemtnt times. 3,000 can be early. I look at the oil on the dip stick and use that and mileage as a guide. Also, have a car with a blower in it? They state oiled for life. Call up the dealer and ask how to change out. All I called can find the replacement oil, but had never even heard of replacing that oil. But their internal components do wear and any particulates are bad for the bearings. But I digress.

Good luck in all your repairs and in locating products that are built rugged for longevity.

 

 

OLD_CURMUDGEON
User Rank
Platinum
Re: Correct on govt emission requirements, complexity
OLD_CURMUDGEON   6/25/2012 9:54:21 AM
NO RATINGS
I agree!  I believe that the lines of explanation for WHY things evolve the way they do are NEVER as clear-cut as one would like.  The equations for explaining these phenomena are NEVER one-dimensional, or even two-dimensional.  When you consider ALL the inputs that are considered in making design & marketing decisions, it's almost an impossible task to fully comprehend the physical, emotional, psychological aspects.  But, that does NOT excuse stupid engineering, as you suggest w/ the 2001 RANGER example.  You state that your CRAFTSMAN tool collection dates back for 30 years.  Well, mine dates back several more decades than that!  In all those years, I am proud to admit that VERY FEW hand tools were ever returned to SEARS for replacement.  And, that's NOT because they weren't used!  It's because I always respected each tool for what it is.  Screwdrivers, not matter how large, were NEVER used as pry bars, wrenches were never used as hammers, etc.  But, I can tell you one thing for sure ...... they sure saw a lot of action repairing cars, boats, outboard & inboard engines, and too many other mechanical devices to mention.

My current vehicles are TOYOTAs, and I don't even venture to change the oil & filter anymore.  In fact, when I went to the dealer recently, I asked about changing the transmission oil & filter.  His response, "it's lifetime fluid.  We only check & top off if necessary."  Now, that's technology for you!

And, on a final note ..... I guess my allegiance to CRAFTSMAN has somewhat of a personal note.  My father's commanding officer in the NAVY in the years prior to WW II was the manager of the WESTERN FORGE plant in Colorado, where most of the CRAFTSMAN hand tools were manufactured.  ALL my hand tools have the "WF" brand stamped into them someplace on the tool.

ADIOS!

 

rcwithlime
User Rank
Silver
Correct on govt emission requirements, complexity
rcwithlime   6/25/2012 9:12:02 AM
NO RATINGS
 

I have read many articles on such subjects. The lines concering some of the reasons for auto complexity and what started in, were just used and distributed by one of these design magainze and on Yahoo a couple of weeks ago, as well as a couple of days ago. And I agree. But I also do not believe it stops there.

If you have tried to replace such items as hubs on some trucks, Wheel bearings on some cars, etc. You will find that with only a small modification to the vehicle design, the job could have been made much easier. For example, on a 2001 Ford Ranger, removing the front shaft is hampered by a small protrusion cast into the supporting assembly. The only function of that protrusion, looks to be to make it difficult to perform that maintenance. Looking at components on engines, you can see how difficult it is just to change the spark plugs on many models. Sure, I understand that engineering for room constraints depict many designs, but when looking over the designs, sometimes it is hard to see how placement and design was not done just to help make it difficult for the average person to perform maintenance, without purchasing a arsenal of specific tools suited to only that task.

I have 2 Full tool box sets full of Craftsman tools (but use other brand screwdrivers now) along with 2 other top boxes. Majority of all is Craftsman, which I have been buying for over last 30 years. Over that time, I seen the quality of Craftsman decline. Still does not mean that they are a bad tool, just not where they used to be. (Which goes back to the original topic of why the washing machine can keep the change - becasue of a decrease in user-friendliness and product featuers.) Want a "pretty" as well as strong and functional wrench, you now look to the High $ of Snap-On, etc. But as I refuse to pay those high $, I will continue to buy Craftsman as need requires.

 You want distracting, try following behind those SUV's and Mini vans with the multiple large entertainment center displays and watching their movies. Hard to watch Sponge Bob and their brake lights at the same time. :)  Have a good day.

OLD_CURMUDGEON
User Rank
Platinum
Re: Commercial duty tools
OLD_CURMUDGEON   6/25/2012 8:47:45 AM
NO RATINGS
Again, adding more tangency to this blog, but worth the comments.  I agree with you on many fronts. 

I still have a CRAFTSMAN tool box that stands as tall as I do, chock full of CRAFTSMAN wrenches, screwdrivers (of EVERY description), COMPLETE socket sets from 1/4" drive thru 1/2" drive, and ALL the automotive & mechanical tools that one could ever need for repairing anything at home from the lawn mower to the farm tractor!

I also have a DUNLOP (an old SEARS, ROEBUCK brand) table saw that belonged to my father when he was a teenager.  He used it to build kayaks, etc.  It's over 80 years old, and still works!!! (although the motor has been replaced.

Regarding modern automobile technology ...... I believe that IF you do a careful analysis, you will discover that the state of technology of modern vehicles was spawned by the "emission" crisis of decades past.  Add to that the Oil Embargo of the early 1970s, and the result was a forced engineering to provide more fuel-efficient & environmentally cleaner vehicles.  Couple that with the consuming public ALWAYS seeking more "time-saving" & "convenience" apparati, and what do you have?  You have a modern vehicle which is a technological masterpiece.  It is not just a transportation device anymore ..... now it's an entertainment center as well.  However, this last frontier I think bears some serious philosophical re-evaluation.  Adding too many distracting entertainment devices to a moving vehicle IS a recipe for MORE disaster, NOT less!  There's considerable "noise" that the gov't should rein in on some of the features being installed in modern vehicles.  I can't say that I disagree with that!

 

rcwithlime
User Rank
Silver
Commercial duty tools
rcwithlime   6/25/2012 8:15:52 AM
NO RATINGS
I agree. Although we are going off on a tangent a bit. Difference between "sears" brand and "Craftsman" brand years ago. I always spent the extra for Craftsman, as I work my tools hard. There was a dramatic difference in looks and longevity between many of the two. Nowadays, Craftsman does not begin to look like the tools that it used to. They used to compare to Snap On, but look at their wrenchs now. They look more like the Sears of old. No longer polished. Their electric tools are hard to differentiate between other brands of the same tool, when you look at size and weight. In their defence, it is probably relates, at least in a big part, to two factors.

1) The back yard mechanic was able to work on his car. Could just about take the whole thing apart and put back together. Not any more. Cars are designed for prevent this, to help dealerships to gain the repair business. This dramatically reducted the amount of people needing hand tools. Parents no longer purchased for their kids, so they could keep their cars going.

2) Decline of the manufacturing industry, and modernization. Again, now that less tools are needed, less demand. Sears is now trying to bring in average home owners - tool buyers still looking for hand tools by offering a decent product at lower cost. In many ways, I am still not over sure of how decent the products are any more. (That is a relative measurement.) But, to offer the lower cost, they had to decrease on the tool processing. Such as polishing the wrenches, etc.

Ok, enough of my stating the obvious. But I do still buy the better brand tools, in hopes that I will only have to buy once. Sometimes that works. But when it comes to appliances, very difficult to tell and more $ does not necessarily insure longevity or decent quality. Best way to try and tell is look online at product reviews.

OLD_CURMUDGEON
User Rank
Platinum
Re: OLD_CURMUDGEON is 100% correct
OLD_CURMUDGEON   6/25/2012 7:58:49 AM
NO RATINGS
You mentioned "Commercial Duty".  That reminded me of a marketing tool that CRAFTSMAN (Sears, Roebuck) used many decades ago in regard to a line of power tools.  They had their standard grade of drills, saws, etc., but they also sold a grade that was supposed to be more robust, designed for the professional tradesman.  That line of tools was called "COMMERCIAL DUTY".  Even the nameplate reflected that status.  I know ..... I still have (and occasionally use) those tools today, although many others in my "crib" are either MILWAUKEE, DeWALT, PORTER CABLE, or B&D.

Would these tools have lasted longer than the run-of-the-mill offereings of that period?  Who knows?  Were they worth the extra money?  Again, who knows?  But, for my purposes over these decades, they've all lasted, and that's all that is important to me.

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