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in practice, most focus on building services engineering so far. i am ivery much nterested in instrumentation and controls, likewise software is a part of it...thanks.

another great presentation again, eventhough it's too short and slides are quite small in number, but the learning wise is adorable, well informative and educational...

thanks once again sir rick for your great presentation and thanks also to the digikey and design news for being one of the key sponsor by providing this kind of PDH Certificates of our continuing education...

i am now on slide 7...

here we go in slide 2....

just downloaded the presentation slides for day 4 class lesson...

here i am again sir rick...

Good presentation and topic, I wish that it could be more structured for easy to follow and be supported with some examples and references

HW R&D, and I am a newbie for SW -based tests

Hello from Oregon, it is very convenient to have access to the archives

More detail in slides with the information you are covering verbally

Iron

Online learning and online tutorials have made some nice progress, but I don't think ~WE here~ are necessarily keeping up. Quite. Might be a good suggestion for DigiKey/DesignNews to consider -- if they can "Up-tech" their interactive classes (make the "interactive" a bit more flexible, say) their attendance and satisfaction will increase.

Iron

Thank you for your comment about making these webinars more interactive.  In Friday's chat and the last notes page for Friday, I am listing links to webinars on this subject which are more technical.

Blogger

Later... I think I'm going to stack some chairs, sweep up, etc.

Platinum

@LevitonDave, interesting you mention the "embedded" bit. I am currently unemployed, and have been surprised (and aggravated) by the extent to which anyone SEEING "embedded devices" in my resume seems to automatically assume that I'm some C+ guru...

Platinum

ROTFL - I have to get back to earning my paycheck, so I'll talk to you tomorrow.

Hmm. Anybody know what the text "IRON" next to a username means?? Given that the most common alternative seems to be "BLOGGER", "IRON" is obviously a category we most-all fit within... Only thing that comes to mind though is "What you get when you remove Y(ou) from IRONY"... LOL

Platinum

The issue of interaction is driven by the facilities and interactivity available in the working environment. I have to go "around" the corporate network to be able to hear the audio so higher bandwidth/higer interactive options may not be available to everyone.

But it is an interesting suggestion. Rich are you listening?

@flared0ne - I agree there is some "real world" learning that can't be avoided. However, providing useful alternate approaches to organizing the "big picture" can help the newbee's and novices to take their game to a more productive level.

Personally, I'm not a test engineer. I do embedded software and as a result there are some differences and similarities. I have, however, been involved with sufficient test equipment to understand the issues you are describing.

I'm leaning toward checking out some of the group-shared workspace packages available out there; don't know if they're readily/freely available as browser add-ins, and they tend to have a bit of head-end expense (if you pick one which is based upon using a whiteboard, for example). But I've been seeing commercials on public TV for some of these packages with sketch-pads and graphics etc.

 

Online learning and online tutorials have made some nice progress, but I don't think ~WE here~ are necessarily keeping up. Quite. Might be a good suggestion for DigiKey/DesignNews to consider -- if they can "Up-tech" their interactive classes (make the "interactive" a bit more flexible, say) their attendance and satisfaction will increase.

Platinum

@LevitonDave, anytime someone does a presentation about "Software can do it all!", the issue of "IF you have experience and know what CAN happen" comes up. If you DON'T have experience, all these slides about "This kind of module needs THIS additional functionality, because later you will regret not having it" aren't going to get much traction. "Tough love", "no pain, no gain", etc. Can't recognize the speedbumps unless you bite your tongue going over one at least once.

Platinum

Skipping back to "formulating the question" -- one major area where "experience counts" is when you are using generic devices to interface with a DUT -- devices which don't ALLOW you to vary signal transition levels, or measure I/O currents, which don't allow you to vary rise/fall timing on an input data/clock/trigger/etc... "roll-your-own" test setups will fail to detect a large percentage of some fairly common failure modes; and you won't know that happened until you get a spike in DOA or infant-mortality stats. SOME test gear allows you to treat a test-signal source-point as a signal generator, with tight control over all specs. YOU have to know/decide when that expense is justified, considering it can damage your credibility (and job security) to have your tested devices falling over in the field.

Platinum

flared0ne - Your approach has been learned through experience. I was hoping that the topic of "developing sofware for your test application" would bring up some of these issues as part of the presentation to help others avoid some of these "learning curve" issues.

I worked with Hewlett-Packard/Agilent extend some of their "generic testing environment" back in the '80s. Some of these concepts were supported/enforced as part of the environment and made reuse/re-sequencing straight forward. I can't believe that this hasn't been used by others in the past 20+ years.

@LevitonDave -- you've hit on an issue which can bite you. Because in some cases a failure mode doesn't show up until after you have departed from that "common stable state" -- I've encountered device failures which were "prevented" by a board level reset, when ordinary useage didn't ALLOW for a board-level reset at the necessary point (which would have lost other necessary state info anyway).

Platinum

In the past, I've often been amused/bemused when, yet again, it becomes clear that "properly formatting a question tends to almost automatically evoke the answer". In other words, when I have properly laid out a full description of ALL the functional elements of a device I'm tasked with testing, that full description can become the checklist for the test suite.  And I mean a FULL description -- input current specs, input voltage specs, thermal range restrictions, output current specs, noise level budget, etc -- ANYthing which SHOULD trigger a "failed" response needs to have a condition check.

Platinum

Rick - The approach to software modularity is a combination of the tools, supported modules and sequences to achieve a consistent, reordable testing environment.

Labview is an application development environment that supports both good and bad organization of software testing. This is true whether using purpose built instruemntation or software defined generic tools. LabView ADE is intependent of the software defined approach vs. purpose built instruments.

Software organization will greatly influence the ability to use/reorder/modify/extend tests. This will greatly drive the way the software testing modules/code are created.

Do you have any experience or suggestions on how to structure the software testing within the ADE?

For example, does it make sense to approach tests as a sequence that contains a "setup test", "execute the test", "tear down" to have the DUT in a common stable state between tests.

Hmm, this might be an idea -- I'm loading Chrome to be able to LISTEN to the audio. Chrome doesn't allow doing the same kind of "shortcut" link, so I've been clicking on the link in the reminder email and opening an IE window. I think tomorrow I'm going to KEEP the IE window open AND "pause" the non-functional audio player (so it isn't sitting there trying futilely to synch up) and use THAT window to type into Chat. Let the Chrome window sit in the background more-or-less feeding me audio. Diagnostic -- split the problem child into multiple pieces, see which individual piece keeps the problem (or not).

Platinum

Mr E: Thanks for the comment. A complex microcontroller application, like a car starter, obviously has multiple inputs and outputs. To really exercise the on board coding, it would be prudent to run various test scenarios, and be able to produce reports for each one. I am unsure how the testing instruments would interface to the MCU package, but I can see where one would need to be inventive. For example, if the MCU package had to drive a glow plug directly, then one would want an appropriate resistive load hooked to that output. Deriving an input from this for the testing environment might take some cobbled electronics,like a hall effect current sensor, but would be necessary for real world testing. Assuming Labview could talk to the MCU via I2C or CAN, I think most of the logic response could be captured. However, does LabView provide for individual digital I/O, analog inputs, etc? Thanks again.

Thanks Rick. Looking forward to tomorrow's class.

Blogger

Bye for today.  Look here for answers to your questions that have not yet been answered.  Tune in tomorrow at 2:00 p.m. EDT for the last presentation of this webinar.  Download the slide deck first.  After the presentation, Email Rich Nass at Rich.Nass@UBM.com to get a copy of the slide deck that includes the notes.  On the last page of the notes, and also in tomorrow's chat, I will post my sources, blogs, contacts, Emails, and a request to all of you about how we can make this webinar better in the future.

Blogger

Speaking of glitches - I would SERIOUSLY like to figure out how to reliably click "Post" and actually have what I just typed APPEAR...

Iron

Missing posts.  Look further down.  That's where I found mine.

Blogger
Blogger

Missing posts.  Look further down.  That's where I found mine.

Blogger

Rick,

Why isn't the Julian Date number used within time stamps in the industrial data acquisition environment? TIA

Iron

I'm a novice, but have a strong electronics background.

placing a business card over it or using an external keyboard were given as sugesstions to resolve this

Plus I recently learned that the mouse pad on a laptop is tempurature sensistive and is responsible for my cursor to lose its position

 small software test 
Would a set-up like Lab View be an economical choice for testing 
moderately complex microcontroller devices. Seems that only a software 
system would be able to test all operational scenarios, which would be 
essential to uncover bugs in the device design.  Thanks
Iron

 

There will be a discussion of this tomorrow.  If that doesn't answer the question, look at my list of references and contacts tomorrow, and then if you can't find it, contact the vendor.

Blogger

I think different browsers do a web page refresh thing or web page postback which causes the typed information to be lost

I notice that when I download the slide deck at the end of the download the audio resets

I think it has something to do with the postback on the web page

@flaredOne - missing posts seems to be a sporadic thing, has happened to be off and on. probably just need to copy text before posting so that if it is lost, just paste and post again

Iron

I created a post that didn't get posted.  You are not the only ones.

Blogger

Need more info on slides than same slides in the slide pack

Iron

 

Iron

To see my notes, request the version of the slide deck from Rich Nass (by Email) and view the slides under the Notes View.  Rich's Email is rich.nass@ubm.com

Blogger
Blogger

@luizcosta: Agreed. It would be nice to be able to "reply" to a specific post rather than trying to copy enough context to allow the poster to recognize that you are responding to them.

Iron

@luizcosta: When I was working in an environment that dealt with state estimation and Kalman filtering, we would usually have a "reality" model that would either synthesize or replay recorded real-world events in real-time (or occasionally scaled real-time) and compare "reality" (as presented to the state estimator) with the estimated state output. By playing many scenarios, you began to see specific scenarios that were handled incorrectly and could then home in on the problem areas to debug the estimator. Is that the sort of thing you are interested in doing?

Iron

The most important shortcoming of this chat server is that the posted questions/comments are not automatically appended to the answer.

Iron

OK.  I will append the answers to the questions so they will appear like this.

Blogger

OK, folks, I will e-see you all tomorrow. So long!

Iron

The most important shortcoming of this chat server is that the posted questions/comments are not automatically appended to the answer.

Iron

I am not a technical expert in all of these areas.  I will, however, get you answers.  Stay tuned.  Look at this chat page after this week.

Blogger

OK, time to earn my keep. Thanks Rick and Rich. See all tomorrow.

Iron

Hmm. Accidentally clicked a participant's username, went off somewhere else, and came back -- NOW I get to watch through the entire chat session reloading... auugh!

Platinum

If your post doesn't appear to you, it doesn't appear to anyone else.  Post it again.

Blogger

@RICK I don't see much of any answers to specific technical questions.

Iron

I've actually had better results doing "cut-and-pAste" than typing directly -- it's just that I usually don't expect a SMALLER message to get lost, so I don't ALWAYS "select all" and "ctrl-C" to snapshot stuff. And then several minutes of thought just vaporizes...

Platinum

@Russ Re: Python

See my post at 1:59:03

Iron

Iron

To see my notes, request the version of the slide deck from Rich Nass (by Email) and view the slides under the Notes View.  Rich's Email is rich.nass@ubm.com

Blogger

@flaredOne, are you typing directly into the "post" section? If you cut and post, it doesn't post.

Blogger

@flaredOne - missing posts seems to be a sporadic thing, has happened to be off and on. probably just need to copy text before posting so that if it is lost, just paste and post again

Iron

Rich posted his email address waay back at the beginning of the Chat "stack" for slides-plus-notes requests. Me, I'm going to hit him up tomorrow for the entire week's worth (either five at once, or five individual msgs, whatever...)

Platinum

Speaking of glitches - I would SERIOUSLY like to figure out how to reliably click "Post" and actually have what I just typed APPEAR...

Platinum

 I will not discuss the cloud here.  Tomorrow I will post my Email, so we talk about it via Email.

Blogger

@TechMan25, send me an email and I will send you the PPT with the notes embedded

Blogger

@rfindley: I figured that Agilent and other instrumentation manufacturers had to have products like VEE, but no, I have never used it or even heard of it until you mentioned it, yet the Agilent website shows that it is currently at version 9.3. Go figure!

Iron

IN THE SYTEM DESIGN, should system componet tests be included in the base sofeware, or a way to access the controller to input specific tests.

@fholmes - hmmmm - weird happenings in this weird session - what does it mean :^0

Iron

ARMRSS, that was me (Rich) not Rick who will be sending the notes. Mt email address is Rich.Nass@ubm.com

Blogger

Hey Rick, I am in a notes view of the presentation and I am not seeing any notes or the table you spoke of. Is the slide Deck posted an older version? Would it be possible to post a more up to date one if it is a version issue?

Iron

Most distance measurements are in meters.

Blogger

@danlafleur - I agree...beware of the cloud

Iron

Rick,

Can you repeat your email so I can get today's notes since the audio dropped out.

Thanks

Iron

Rick,

I noticed that all of the GPIB BUS Cables are measured in lengths equal to meters. Why is that?

TIA

Iron

Odd thing about the audio drops, while he was experiencing difficulties, my speaker jack popped out and I was waiting for him to return. Wierd timing for a failure at my end.

Iron

@RICK: As I asked the other day, how do you test if a Kalman Filter or Other similar algorithms are providing the correct state estimate or the correct system's identification?

Iron

@rruther2 - just take your Starbucks certificate to a starbucks store for redemption

Iron

@Rick, another good reason for not trusting the cloud for critical processes or something really important to you.

Iron

Rick - Python use thoughts?

 

Iron

till tomorrow...for more audio books

Iron

thanks Rick for you information

 

I thought I saw one starbuck printout once. I do not know how to find or use them.

Iron

Sorry about the audio drops.  I have used different providers and each has a unque problem.

Blogger
Thanks Rick, This was interesting even with the audio issues
Iron

i think the trip to NJ will be much costly 

 

Thank you Rick, Rich and Digi-Key.

@rich - will be in NJ in December...see you then

Iron

No one here has used Agilent's VEE?  Having used a lot of Agilent test equipment, I got started on VEE, and personally find it more intuitive than LabView.

Iron

Resolution: analog value associated with one-bit change in value...

 

"Drift" (time, temperature, etc) will bite you. Temperature-controlled chambers can minimize thermal effects on test gear. "Test bench stops working if the AC goes off" will frustrate things.

 

New Jersey Starbucks?? Hmm.

Platinum

@luizcosta - I second the 2 starbucks certs

Iron

@flaredOne, I agree that low impedance or current driven lines are much better at rejecting radiated noise.

Iron

This week we deserve two Starbucks Gift Certificates due to the telecom bugs. :o)

Iron

Today's audio is dropping quite often.

Iron

We lost the audio..

 

Iron

Another thing to take into consideration in noisier environments is, if you HAVE a choice, select devices which use a CURRENT loop (variations in CURRENT are hugely insensitive to most external noise sources).

 

Audio dropped out again...

Platinum

Nyquist is not "shown" in the slides. Hopefully in the "notes".

Iron

Need more info on slides than same slides in the slide pack

Impedance matching is SERIOUSLY non-trivial in noisy environments, too.

Platinum

I had a customer once that had an ethernet wire running from one part of the building over a connecting bridge and into the other building and couldnt understand why they had network communication errors. Theyt not only had stapled through some of the cable but also went passed the ethernet distance limitation. They should have been happy it worked at all.

@Rick - why did you not include USB ratings, expecially the more current USB versions

Iron

It isn't that he's reading from one sheet of paper, he's (generally usefully) jumping from one page to another, following the train of concept/context HE is trying to create for us.

 

And yeah, having been doing similar things for quite awhile, I'm a -little- disappointed -- mostly because in a perfect world, what HE is doing would be SIMPLER to take advantage of by reading through a sequenced hyperlink document, with extracts and highlighted content. I can read text SERIOUSLY faster than I can LISTEN to text. I.e, I finished the last Harry Potter book in about three hours, while the Books-on-Tape version runs what, eight hours??

Platinum

I got answer, but you have repeat...its my experience from previous lessons.

Tables are in the notes section. Send me an email if you want that.

Blogger

Sure, he's reading from various white papers. What I AM seeing is that he IS extracting pertinent tidbits from a wide variety of online sources -- and again, having someone with significant expertise and experience AGGREGATING from multiple sources -- VALUABLE (ahem, mostly, though, valuable if we are given access TO those multiple sources so we CAN in fact expand on the lecture by seeing what he did NOT have time to include).

Platinum

Has anyone else here used Agilent's VEE software? (Similar to NI Labview)

Iron

Note: MUCH of what he is describing is most pertinent to someone who does a lot of test development, probably in larger multi-DUT environments.

Platinum

For my network at work its 1megabyte per hour

Is it a table in the "notes" part of the slidepack that was not distributed?

Iron

Are "posts" getting stuck again?

Platinum

I don't see any tables in today's slide pack...

Iron

@joewojicki - don't think you lost anything about NI.  :^)

Iron

We hope this lesson will have correctly recorded sound/audio, right?

We lost part about NI

Basically find some of the other lectures were much stronger. That said the other lectures had some of the same uncoordinated interuptions that these appear to have. In fact I would say they had more of them.

It is slide number 7 not 8.

Iron

They should be more than reading off from a sheet of paper. I appreciate the effort but.

@flaredOne Great point

Blogger

@Rich - very disappointed with this weeks lectures... by far the worse out of this year's series...

Iron

 MS is lucky to be allowed in this industry.

Iron

So he's spending a certain amount of time describing the "TEST ENVIRONMENTS" available, then drilling down a bit to discuss some of the stuff that every individual module YOU create should incorporate (again, from experience of having stumbled over "man, I wish I had included THAT from the start").

Platinum

@caa028 - yes, think he is still just reading from white papers...or whatever

Iron

But what Microsoft lacks is the underlying access to the instrumentation hardware, which is where NI shines.

Iron

We can take these lectures as "Audible lectures".

Iron

Any time you have a unique device to be tested, you HAVE to create your own test sequences to fit into "test modules" in whatever testing environment you are supporting.

Platinum

@jl - apparently he never used it...

Iron

The good news is that the audience is very varied in its technical depth. The bad news is that it's hard to teach a class at multiple levels at the same time. But I think Rick is doing a good job.

Blogger

MS Video Studio is more than a web development suite. It is a complete C/C+ development evironment plus the other C#, VB, etc development

Iron

Maybe he got hit with lightning?

Iron

Gone again. Missed 30 seconds.

Platinum

Rick said there are thunderstorms where he is -- maybe it is affecting a cordless or wireless phone connection.

Iron

House full of technical people!!  No one better than the attendees of this seminar understand "technical difficulties!!!   (grin)

No problem. That is the problem with the removal of ATM technology from multimedia telecommunications. IP only, just doesn't do it.

Iron

currently HW and moving towards SW.

Iron

While we are waiting for Rick to re-dial... can anyone explain the relation of today's lecture title to the actual lecture?

Iron

yes i am loosing voice every now and then

 

Any chance of getting a summary ADDED to the last day's slide deck, with links to the resources Rick aggregated during the week??

Platinum

Breakng audio very often today

That is fine. This happens sometime, no worries at all.

Iron

@kamjam, you're welcome.

Iron

If it's working, tell him to sit REEEALLY still.

Platinum

Thanks danlafleur for answering my question

Iron

Rick's audio is impossible to follow...

Iron

ADE-Application Development Environment

Iron

Goombi, not an expert but have experience.Would require more in depth into the subject

Iron

Well, guess THAT didn't do it...

Platinum
Hey, technical difficulties always show up at some time or another....
Iron

ADC = analog to digital converter, DAC = digital to analog converter ?

Iron

@kamjam - analog to digital converter - digital to analog converter

Iron

With any luck, if people have ever gone into this subject area and managed to do it at all CORRECTLY, they only need to keep up-to-date.

 

Several years of experience, scattered across multiple years, multiple projects, multiple companies.

 

Consider myself intermediate (have rolled my own, have used one or two obscure commercial products). Looking for the high-level concepts about what kinds of adjunct modules SHOULD be included (re the "learning from experience", leveraging institutional knowledge).

 

Rick, I would say there's some chance you have a slightly loose connection on some cable connector.

 

ADC = Analog-to-Digital converter

DAC = Digital-to-Analog converter

Platinum

I will appreciate if you mention all the acronyms for the listeners

Iron

What are ADC AND DAC stand for?

 

Iron

Experienced but not yet expert.  Experience with Agilent (and a few others) using C+ /COM over GPIB, USB, and LAN/LXI.

Iron

Audio is interrupted again...

Iron

Hi Rick, Rich and all.

Iron

a lot of experience with the older mlitary ATE for avionics systems. not much with newer and PC based systems.

Iron

I enjoyed Ricks lecture that he presented yesterday. 

Iron

The information you are giving is about right and folks can augment this with questions about their specific areas of interest.

Iron

Have some experience with Automated Test Systems.  Good overview, but wouild like to see a little more depth.

Iron

I'm a newbie in this subject.

Iron

more of a newby trending towards novice but getting deeper into it

Iron

I am a Systems Engineer involved in testing, verification and validation of commerical avionics program applications

 

Iron

Newbie for software-based test

Iron

@alaskaman66: LabView would let you program your test, but you would still need a complement of hardware to perform the actual interface to the MCU. So for example, suppose the MCU supports an I2C bus, you would need to physically connect something that could assess that the electrical characteristics were correct, and something else to assess whether the communication was within spec, and likely something to deliberately generate various signaling errors and assess the response. LabView could be the "glue" to coordinate all of that test hardware, but of course, so could a number of other tools. I think it would come down to whether you were already committed to LabView or not. Of course LabView would allow a lot of flexibility in terms of exploring levels and probing while running.

Iron

SW = expert, FW = novice, HW = newbie

Iron

Current application:  AS5048 (Magnetic rotary encoder)

Newbie!  New to PXI and the capabilities.

Iron
I am a noob in regard to this topic
Iron

@Rich - pretty much an expert (several years of experience)

Iron

Good afternoon Rick.

Iron

I am pretty much a novice/newbie

Iron

No particular application for me -- just general interest.

Iron

Hi Rick and everyone in the session

Iron

good afternoon, everyone

Iron

yep, did that, maybe need another coffee!

Iron

Good afternoon Rich.

 

Iron

Rich, almost everyone who has worked in electronics as a technician in this state for twenty years has worked for the same employer at one point, and usually know each other.

Here's an easy way to convert from C to F in your head (and it's mathematically exact):  Take the temperature in C, double it, subtract 10% and add 32.

Iron

hello all...still raining (drizzling) in Dallas...love it....still need more rain...we take all we can get

Iron

Good afternoon all from sunny and warm Toronto

Iron

If you wants today's slides with notes included, send me an email at Rich.Nass@ubm.com

Blogger

In the previous sessions some asked each time about Python.  Python is a text-based language who's motto is "Batteries Included" meaning that everything you need for a program is in the language.  Although this doesn't include libraries to talk to hardware they are readily available, including VISA and GPIB.

Iron

1 minute warning

Blogger

Good afternoon folks.

Iron

yes, 60.8F is much closer, a little off with the estimating. Still not as warm as I'd like.

Iron

With the humidity, it has to be close to 90 F here.

Iron

is it just coincidence that we have two folks from alaska?

Blogger

@Alaskamann66, your message ran off the page. Can you re-ask?

Blogger

OK, about 57F, still kind of chilly for June.

Iron

Hello From Canada. Just made it back from a very hot and humid bicycle ride.

Iron

Hello, another sunny day in STL!

Iron

@danlafeur, do a quick conversion for me please.

Blogger
 small software test 
Would a set-up like Lab View be an economical choice for testing 
moderately complex microcontroller devices. Seems that only a software 
system would be able to test all operational scenarios, which would be 
essential to uncover bugs in the device design.  Thanks

Good morning Rick, Rich and all from sunny and 16C Edmonton.

Iron

Hi Rick & All From California

Iron

HELLO FROM sunny MIAMI...

Join our Digi-Key Continuing Education Center LinkedIn Group at http://linkd.in/yoNGeY

Blogger

Download the presentation at the link above "Today's Slide Deck."

Blogger

I'm here and I can multi-task. Ask your pre-class questions now.

Blogger

Whoops I take that back he is lurking

I don't think Rick is here yet

The presentation will begin in 20 minutes.  I am logged into this chat, but don't expect me to look at it while I am presenting the webinar.  Rich Nass will monitor it, however, so fire away with questions and any audio or other problems.  Don't forget to download today's slide deck, as well as tomorrow's.  I will be back on this chat after the webinar ends, around 2:30 p.m. EDT. 

Blogger

Goombi Ohio IT Administrator, Hello to all, you too Rick.

Iron

No this is agile no sitting allowed

Nobody else here yet?? Oh, boy, so I get to rearrange the seating...

Platinum


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