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Thank you Carol and Alex

LED drivers and their implementation

Planning to use LED light

I have never used high brightness LEDs.

Iron

testing to see if still live

 

Iron

Use in next 12 months - yes.

Iron

A very enjoyable session

@Alex - small scale project with HB LEDs

Iron

@Alex - re. applications... not really interested in LED lighting... more into PWM controlled HB LEDs for hi-viz indications, etc...

Iron

@Alex - yes, I'm planning to use HB LEDs

Iron

@Alex - job area s/w, h/w and currently focus on standardization

Iron

Missed the session again (travel, travel, travel...)

Iron

OK gang...  See ya tomorrow.  Bye.

Iron

@LevitonDave - Yep, a new product line might do it.  But there is still the issue of the cost of that new product having the expensive LED.  Oh, and let's not forget we need to get the marketing and sales folks to find a market to buy our new design.  Just can't go making something without having someone who wants/needs to buy it, huh?

Iron

@Rerepete - Using the same component in other products is a great idea.  Unfortunately, the other analyzers in the product line use a different technology.  Those lines don't use "the bulb."  That's one of the reasons we couldn't justify going the route of the LED solution.  But, with all that is going on in the LED industry right now, conditions may make it feasible to make the custom LED at a lower cost.

Iron

See you tomorrow LDave

Iron

See you guys tomorrow

turn it into a new product line?

You don't have to actually build the other whatever, just suggest other possible applications....

Iron

Or find another use for your component to increase the potential usage to drop unit cost of production

Iron

@Repete - Sometimes, because it can be done is a sometimes a reason to do it.  But that doesn't mean we can always get away with it.  That's why we have managers.  :.)

Iron

The thing is to keep current in what is would cost to produce, and maybe someone else has needed your component and paid the upfront charge....

Iron

@LevitonDave - I completely agree concerning reputation and reliability, but unless the issue is of a much higher degree than this bulb, it doesn't get much attention at the management level, and I have little "pull."

Iron

Thanks Carol and everyone.

Iron

@ran - Yea I know - the self pride is the hardest thing to take the hit on. :)

(as an ex-HP/Agilent designer I can appreciate the situation)

@ran true, but sometimes, just because it can be done, doesn't mean there is a competitive advantage to doing it.

 

Iron

@Rerepete - Accountants don't see it that way.  I agree with you, however.

Iron

Thanks Carol.  See ya tomorrow.

Iron

@ran - when selling an high end device like a GC the repuation and reliability is a strong arguement to making the entire system reliable.

@LevitonDave - The "non$" is the hard part.  They typically don't speak that language.  Ya know?

Iron

@Rerepete – However, it's not the best face on my professional pride, which hits me in my design skills.

Iron

Hope this was helpful. See you all tomorrow.

Blogger

@Ran - sometimes the attitude is "so long as it lasts just as long, or longer, than the rest of the assembly" who cares about a super-lifetime component

Iron

@ran You may consider the non$ approach. reliability and product differentiation to sell to upper management.

@Rerepete – I suppose that would put the best face on it.

Iron

The manufacturer sometimes specify that. Usually use thermal adhesive to attach thermocouple to LED case or thermal pad.

Blogger

@ran  O f course the "cheap" replacement is a good source of consumable replacement parts income...

Iron

@JayPax - you can adhesively bond a fine-guage thermocouple to it

Iron

Where and how do you measure the LED temperature?

Iron

"Hi, Carol:

Life of LED is said to be around 15 years.

I think the life of large quantity of LED will be a normal distribution.

How can I know the error and standard deviation for LED"

I think Lumileds publishes their LM80 data. You could evaluate it.

Blogger

@Rerepete – Thanks for the ideas.  We looked at quite a few alternatives, but it's tough to beat a cheap bulb.  Ya know what I mean?  Try convincing managers and a CEO.  All it takes in one "sit down face-to-face" with the boss gang to make one realize that you'd better have all the right answers and all your ducks in a row or things are just not going to fly.  These folks are all about $$$, and a cheap bulb is tough to beat.  Even if I do the number crunching with good MTBF numbers, almost any idea gets shot down.

Iron

"Does LED light include X ray or other invisible light?"

No x-ray. There's heat, so some IR.

Blogger

"Does applying a PWM/Dimming have any significant impact on the life of an LED?"

Not noticeably. I don't think anyone has really studied the subject. I seems to recall reps from Lumileds said no effect from high frequency. You might argue that dimming means lower current and thus leads to longer life.

Blogger

Plating thickness in what units?

Iron

Hi, Carol:
Does LED light include X ray or other invisible light?

 

@ran depending on the limits of your detectors, a broad specturm LED may work, but 3 of the Mercury lines are near UV/UV,  

Iron

"On Slide 21 about Thermal Via performance -- on the different curves, what do the numbers mean, 70/35, 50/20, etc?"

I think it was copper thickness and through hole plating thickness

Blogger

@Rerepete - I realize that.  NRE (Non-Recoverable Expense) is a reality of all developmental work at all levels of design/development.  But only the company doing the design/development can specify what those minimums are, and all the customer (my employer in this case) can do is consider the response.

Iron

Hi, Carol:

Life of LED is said to be around 15 years.

I think the life of large quantity of LED will be a normal distribution.

How can I know the error and standard deviation for LED

On Slide 21 about Thermal Via performance -- on the different curves, what do the numbers mean, 70/35, 50/20, etc?

Iron

@Ran   the minimun quantity is mainly due to set-up charges, like many other processes, thus the cost is averaged over many units

Iron

Hi Carol,

Does applying a PWM/Dimming have any significant impact on the life of an LED?

"@Carol, I have a question that may apply to tomorrows session. I see references to white LED changing wavelength (colour) with varying forward current. "

shift in wavelength is tiny. Only expensive equipment can measure it. 

Blogger

Hi, Carol:
Can you give me the link for formula for brightness vs current?
I access futurelighting.com but I can not find calculator.

 

i don't think LED lifetimes are changing. It's just so long that they are hard to test. manufacturer's aren't going to wait 7 yrs to test them to failure before releasing them.

Blogger

@Rerepete - I am not an LED component designer, so I can't say too much authoritatively.  All I can do is repeat what the experts told me.  They stated that they could develop an LED for my specified wavelength, but to do so, we'd have to order a minimum quantity.  That quantity was well beyond our needs, so the effort died at that point.

Iron

"LED brightness is linear proportional to current?"

Not exactly. There's a slight droop. Look at a datasheet. Temperature also affects it. Futurelighting.com has a LED calculator.

Blogger

is the lifetime cycle of leds increasing or decreasing?

"Standard component MTBF is a statement that 37% of the component population will fail at achieved MTBF. Did you say thay LEDs are at 50% and still hit the rated MTBF?"

Need to use MTTF, as the LED will not be repaired. 50% was the standard for fluorescent lighting.


Blogger

Hi,Carol:
LED brightness is linear proportional to current?

Or there is nonlinear proportional to current?

Do you have a formula for brightness(lumen) and current?

 

mercury has 5 main emmission wavelengths so if the LED cannot emit enough of that wavelength, it is useless

Iron

@flared0ne - Don't forget that the micro has its own ability to do its internal calibration to make up for variance between one bulb and another and also due to aging of a bulb, thermal drift, ambient drift, etc.

Iron

Not wanting to be part of a problem, so I'll review the archive later. Thanks, all.

Platinum

@Carol, I have a question that may apply to tomorrows session. I see references to white LED changing wavelength (colour) with varying forward current. Are special dimming techniques required because of average current during PWM or is it more based on peak current?

Thank you.

Iron

How do you measure the LED temperature, and where?

Iron

Hi,Carol:
Which color LED does not have infrad?
Or which color LED has minimum infrad?

@Carol: Can you tell us why Cadilac's rear LED lights are made with so little frequency power switching?

Iron

Isn't the wavelength of a mercury bulb dependent upon the elemental characteristics of Mercury (plus whatever phosphors you add to manipulate the output spectrum)?? I would imagine you could approximate portions of the emitted spectrum, but LEDs don't fit a "gut feel" for a good alternative somehow. And (of course) I could be wrong.

Platinum

how is software involved in the control of led?

Thank you Carol and Alex.

Iron

Look at the second slide. Tere's no UV. Just blue.

Blogger

yes. silpad, gapPad, silicone thermal adhesive.

Blogger

What are the Highbay retrofit LED lights?

 

Peltier has a limit on temp. Don't think it would be very useful. Nuventix has a moving diaphragm for cooling LEDs. But it requires a driver board of its own.

 

Blogger

thanks carol. great presentation.

Thanks, this was good info.

Iron

What materials are typically used for thermal interface?  Is it similar to the "sil-pads" we used to use under TO-3 transistors?

 

Gold

@Carol - At one time I worked on a project involving gas chromatography.  It used a mercury light bulb on one end of a tubular sample chamber and optical detector on the other end.  I don't remember the wave length of the mercury bulb, but it was chosen for its wavelength as it pertained to the gas being detected.  The bulb was an MTBF issue, so I wanted to change the design to an appropriately chosen LED.  Unfortunately, the only way to get it was to have them custom made, and we couldn't meet the minimum quantity demands, so the effort was dropped.

I can't help but wonder if all this new activity in the LED industry can bring this project back to life?  What do you think, Carol?

Iron

Thank you very much Carol and Alex

Iron

Good stuff. Much better than the typical "recite a data sheet". Thanks, Carol!

(Odd, it appears that the chat function occasionally blips and throws stuff away).

Platinum

Hi, Caral:
Which color LED does not have infread or UV?

Cold white LED has minimum infrad or UV?

@cmeadows6959 You combine a red, green, and blue LED in the same case.

Iron

Thanks for the presentation.  Very informative.

 

Iron

thank you Carol and Alex. See all tomorrow.

Iron

Caral , Thank you.

 

Iron

Thanks, Carol. Interesting with latest information. 

Iron

Thank you Carol.

Iron

Thanks for the class Carol

Iron

Do you have a reference to where one could get custom-made heat sinks for custom applications?

Iron

thanks Carol, good information, great presentation

Iron

Good Show, Good Day.

Iron

Tomorrow ?? LightFair in Las Vegas

Thank you Carol.

Iron

Brigelux led Tj must be <85C. Is it because GaN is grown on Silicon and material defects are more than that grown on saphire or SiC?

Iron

If you could distill down your list of suppliers/sources and embed that in the chat transcript, that would be useful.

Platinum

How about active cooling for extremely bright light systems, such as Peltier Junctions for extremely bright, small size spot lights? Can you increase brightness /size at the expense of cooling?

Iron

mood light ?  - blue LED

Iron

How do you measure the LED temperature, and where?

Iron

LED lit floor panels for that Saturday Night Fever look in RGB

 

Iron

Does one need a powerful heat sink for IR or NIR LED's or it's gonna be the same for visible LEDs?

Iron

I mentioned this yesterday -- do LEDs exist which have a single package containing the primary emitter and a secondary detector which can monitor emitter output and control an integral on-die feedback loop, maintaining a desired output level?

Platinum

Do the cooling requirements change with RGB LEDs? how are the pads different?

Iron

Just out of curosity, how does luminousiyt of LED change with ambient temperature, in case of absence of heat sink?

Iron

will the same led emits different colors. if so, how?

ONE thing I hear you saying is that "encapsulation for protection from environmental issues" is likely to be causing problems with thermal management.

Platinum

no budget for the lighting project yet, it's going to be a piece at a time, just like Johnny Cash's Cadillac.

Iron

Right now all of our work is one off or custom work, averaging 500-15000 LED units per project.

Iron

Mainly Systems Integration with both Hardware, Embedded Firmware, and Software.

Iron

Does your book covers Thermal design in detail

Iron

How does this change with RGB LEDs?

Iron

Standard component MTBF is a statement that 37% of the component population will fail at achieved MTBF. Did you say thay LEDs are at 50% and still hit the rated MTBF?

Iron

Lifetime projections ARE going to be a huge issue, then -- the consumer public is NOT going to grasp the statistics involved, they're just going to see "hey, it didn't live up to the hype."

Platinum

I am intnerested in greenhouse applications. I have an organic farm under construction in northern VT. I know I will need to have a lot of light to get the crops started early indoors. We will be off-grid, so energy consumption is an issue. I am an electrical/electronics engineer specializing in control systems and this is a new direction for me. I have not yet designed with LEDs, but have lots of LED lighting in my life from COT sources.

Iron

@danlafleur...my thought too

Iron

Interested in interior spot/mood lighting applications

 

Iron

B50 sounds like LD50 with rats.

Iron

Have you seen "Relume"'s LED panels from Ozford michigan? they place then directly on an Aluminum substrate and board.

Iron

@luizcosta - let's emphasize that is YOUR opion.

Iron

What is the normal life time of LED? Does the datasheet have the specifications?

Iron

Interested in strip lighting applications. Have used hbled

Iron

CAREFUL: I think we need to be careful with our quality bias against certain countries. Let's remember that China produces most of the iPhones and iPads.

Iron

@Alex: Software. Just general interest at this time.

Iron

Lighting applications

General interest at this time

Iron

I am interested in outdoor lighting applications

Iron

I am looking at design of headlights for automotive appls

 

Iron

We will be using HB LEDS for primary illumination, RBG lighting for white and coloured mood lighting, and for very high brightess for apps like headlight and spotlights.

Iron

Supportive lighting

Iron

Large scale display boards (signage), although the variation from buy to buy might make color-matching "pixels" a headache.

Platinum

No specific project in mind. Interested in the building lighting technology and use of embedded processors in that market.

Iron

We plan to use for light source in teaching lab expereiments. 

Iron

Flashy consumer products have a definite niche market -- light sabers at Disney are HUGE sellers.

Platinum

No application area other than use a diagnostic indicators - just general interest

Iron

Spectrum analysis of liquid crystal illumination   

Iron

Custom lighted displays

Iron

Haven't used LED's recently and don't plan much immediate future use.

Iron

Residential lighting generally for HB LEDs and specialized apps with IR and UV.

@Shao - will the lightsaber be red or blue ?

Iron

No specific application. Just want to learn more about the state of the technology.

Iron

@alex - information gathering at this point. looking for general information for all applications.

Iron

intersted apps are daylight spectrum high intensity and efficiency lighting for greenhouse/indoor plant growth.

Iron

machine vision apps

Iron

Backlighting and indicators

Iron

Consumer and Automotive Apps

Iron

I want to make a light saber.  If that doesn't work out, then I suppose flashlights will do.

Iron

CADILAC ANOIANCE: Can you talk about the problem and how to circumvent it?

Iron

@djohn, try opening a window in Chrome (to get the audio) -- and (repeating if you missed it) try F5key

Platinum

We currently use high brightness LEDS, and plan on vastly expanding our usage of them, potentially replaceing all lighting with HB LEDs.

Iron

@djohn: reload web page, retart browser.

Planning some automotive lighting applications (DRLs, taillight/turn signals)

Gold

no plan to use  HIGH-BRIGHTNESS LEDs

Iron

for audio try F5

Iron

If your colors are critical, then you need to buy lots and lots to stockpile? Not like matching paint at HomeDepot...

Platinum

used high brightness LEDs

Iron

i remember seeing numbers on old HP led displays showing bin or batch number for matching components in brightness and colour.

Iron

Dan Nguyen, RD Engineer (SSL)

No audio. what to do?

Iron

HB LEDs, not necessarily.  LASER LEDs however, more than likely.

Iron

Yes, I am currently using HB LEDs

Iron

Gathering information for future use

Iron

CUSTOMER ENGINEER. servering remote equipment (hardware and software)

Heh. I've used LEDs that were called "high brightness", but they were not nearly as large (physically or power) as what I would call "rea" high brightness.

I'm having my students build underwater robots with cameras.  The camera work great in the swimming pools, but nothing in the murky ponds.  So I want them to build a few LED arrays so that we can increase our underwater vision.

Iron

Considering HB LED's on a project within 6 months.

Iron

Hardware/software/management

Iron

Yes, planning to use

Iron

Weird -- gulped and swallowed my previous post:

Project/Proto/Product Design engineer...

Platinum

In progress - Upgrading medical device family to use HBLED

Iron

yes, HB LED  used for illumination

Iron
Yes for landscaping apps.
Iron

Job Title: Teacher assistant at a university

 

Iron

Software, firmware some hardware.  Not currently using high brightness LEDs in a project

Played around with high brightness LED for fun. Not sure about future use.

Iron

research engineering.  May use in next year.

Iron

Hi - just using them. Quite a naturall light.

Also used IR and UV LEDs. but prefer lases ;-O.

Iron

got plans but hhas to gather information

no use of high brightness LED at present or near future. just building my tool box for future apps.

Iron

Need to control HB-LED for lighting systems.

using LED's - no plans to use them in next 12 months

Iron

Have not used, no current plans to use.

Iron

Haven't used HB LEDs - no plans to use.

Have used on two projects

Iron

ANSWER: HAVE  YOU OR ARE YOU PLANNING TO USE HIGH-BRIGHTNESS LEDs?

Blogger

Would like to use HB LEDs in near future

Iron

Job Title: Vice President of Engineering

Mostly software and some embedded systems applications.

Iron

 engineering telecommunication

Iron

Hi Alex, Carol, and all.

Iron

@Mr. E - The coincidental events are funny.  I liked how it did.  You seemed almost clairvoyant.  What a hoot.

Iron

sustaining engineering for an instrumentation manufacturer.

communication and computer electronics experience with firmware support.

Iron

Carol/Buss Dev

Iron

Hardware Architect

 

Iron

hardware design engineer

Iron

Hardware/Software Developer

Iron

Director of Electrical Engineering

Iron

SW/FW embedded Lighting control - Sr. Embedded Software Engineer.

embedded engineer

Iron

Systems Eng -- both HW & SW

Iron

Engineering Technician R&D, SW, HW, FW specialized electronic test equipment.

Iron

TV Broadcast Engineer

 

Gold

ECE Instructor for Digital Devices (FPGAs for the masses:)

Iron

Install LEDs as interior lighting in custom built coaches

 

Iron

@Alex - HW/SW/FW

Iron

Hi, CTO, for Alpine Engineering, and Project Manager, OpenLuna.org.

Iron

HW engineering technician

Iron

Lead Design / packaging engineer

Iron

Job Title: Software Engineer

Iron

Sr Embedded Design Engr in rainy NoVA.

Iron

Welcome back Carol.

Iron

Job title is Program Manager, Engineering, Alex.

Iron

Profesor at Hermosillo Institute of Technology

 

Iron

Materials & Process Development

Iron

Electrical design engineer

 

it seems the Starbucks promo is a little misleading.

Iron

good morning, everyone

Iron

so it seems, you only get one chance at a Starbucks card. And no, I never received one when I first regestered.

Iron

Please do not interrupt Carol too much as you did yesterday - it was really annoying and not productive.

Iron

Good afternoon, Carol.

Iron

Good afternoon, Alex.

Iron

10:00, Morning from central Alaska.

 

Iron

found the following in the Starbucks "terms"

5. How to Enter: To participate, you must register by clicking on the Digi-Key Continuing Education Center (on DesignNews.com) registration link and accurately completing the registration form, and attend the course. Mailing and email address must be correct in order to receive a Starbucks E-Gift or Card.

6. Limitations on Entry: The system will only allow you to register once.

Iron

never received a gift card either

 

Iron

Slide deck is getting stuck at 2.5 out of 2.8MB

Iron

spk from Rancho Palos verdes, CA

Iron

Greeting from northern Calif!

Iron

Why do my reminder emails always say attendees will receive a $5 gift card.  I have attended every one, and have never received any gift cards.  Has ANYONE actually received one?

Iron

Ari from Sunny Silicon Valley CA. Happy Tuesday.

Iron

Good afternoon from rainy but pretty warm Toronto

Iron

Good Morning from Oregon

Iron

WRT Slide 10 yesterday' slide deck,  and the connection to 120VAC, I note that bridge rectifiers can be very inefficient and even at 70mA or so, the theoretical peak voltage of 168VDC rapidly drops to 145VDC or so even under this moderate load. At 100mA it is closer to 135VDC.

BTW, since the diodes have a turn-on knee, a bleed resistor is highly recommended across the DC capacitor.

Iron

Good morning from sunny and nicely warm (18C) Edmonton.

Iron

Good afternoon folks.

Iron

Hello from sunny Des Moines!

 

Gold

hellow from RAINY Austin Texas

 

hello from sunny MIAMI

hello Carol -- hope you are having a great day.

Iron

As one MIT-educated entrepreneur to another -- HBLEDs are a great opportunity and fun challenge to place into products.  Additional details on radiometric measurements would be useful.

Iron

Hi from Atlantic Coast USA

Hello and welcome back!

Blogger

After reading back a bit, while there's nothing much else going on...

Regarding IR and UV LEDs -- if you want to get really technical (trying to approach diminishing returns on the whole "predictable results" curve) you will probably also want to search for a nomograph on the propagation/attenuation versus frequency of radiated energy passing through the atmosphere. Those propagation curves are seriously non-linear, involving a wide range of opacity/transparency across the electromagnetic spectrum. Personally, I remember being a bit surprised (mostly because it should have been obvious) when someone pointed out that a lightning strike emits a huge amount of xrays -- generally without much effect (other than causing most of the ozone smell after a strike) because the atmosphere absorbs xrays so effectively.

So your IR and UV propagation distance CAN be calculated with some precision.

Platinum

@alex - hello alex, hope you are having a great day. looking forward to another presentation.

Iron

Good Afternoon, all...looks like today will be a busy one...

Iron

Hi, Doug and everyone else!

Blogger

Douglas Alexander - Component Engineer - EBN Blogger

Iron

Good afternoon most. Good morning west coast.

Iron

Nothing says "Bring it!" quite like getting a seat up front, eh?

Good afternoon, all!

Platinum

Good afternoon everyone.

Iron

I should b back by the time it starts...

 

Iron

Afternoon, everybody! I have to leave for a bit, but wanted to open the page b4 I leave so I don't miss anything.

Iron

@Ran: You give me too much credit. I had no idea that you too had logged in early today. It was a happy coincidence. And far from being on top of things, I was simply lazy. I left yesterday's chat page up when I left work and noticed the new postings when I fired it back up today. See you in class in an hour!

Iron

Chen, you can google most of the information you're asking for.  Yes, you can buy IR LEDs.  You can also buy UV LEDs.  Most data sheets will also detail the information you're looking for in a graph relating current and luminous intensity.

Iron

Hi, Carol:

I am an engineer in switching power supply.

Does LED include UV or infrared light?

LED brightness is proportional to current?

Is there any formula for LED (luminance)=f(current)?

Can you send me your contact to my e-mail: chenliangxa@yahoo.com

 

Thank you!

@Mr. E - Thanks again for your kind words.  I gotta go for now, but I'll be back in an hour for the show with Ms Lenk.

Later...

Iron

@Mr. E - You're very welcome for the MTTF/MTBT post and the Buck/Boost posts.  I hope that info was of some value.  But I'm also surprised at your knowing I posted it.  I had to miss the airing yesterday, so I caught up last night.  I posted, but I didn't know if anybody would ever benefit from those posts.  I'm impressed that you went back and revisited the postings.  You're really on top of things, aren't you?

Iron

Does LED include UV or infrared light?

@Mr. E - Wow!  I'm totally taken by surprise to see your post.  I am NEVER in hear this early.  I don't even plan to stay here at this time.  I'm just very busy and didn't want to wait until the last minute to set up for the show, so I wanted to download the .pps in advance to save a minute or so.  But what surprises me most is that you even knew I was here.  How'd you do that?

Iron

@Ran: Thanks for your helpful posts on MTTF/MTBF and meaning of buck and boost after yesterday's lecture.

Iron

Be sure to click 'Today's Slide Deck' under Special Educational Materials above right to download the PowerPoint for today's session.

Blogger

Please join our Digi-Key Continuing Education Center LinkedIn Group at http://linkd.in/yoNGeY

Blogger

The streaming audio player will appear on this web page when the show starts at 2pm eastern today. Note however that some companies block live audio streams. If when the show starts you don't hear any audio, try refreshing your browser.

Blogger


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