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Re: Simple vs. Simplistic
ChasChas   4/25/2012 9:47:14 AM

I beg to differ, GlennA. The poeple needed fuel efficient cars, but wanted muscle cars and the goverment forced them to burn part ethanol. Just like the basics of the market I mentioned earlier. 

Review econ 101 - that man on the island and then another man came, etc.


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Simple vs. Simplistic
GlennA   4/25/2012 9:15:41 AM
ChasChas;  The market is not that simple.

Remember the 'muscle' cars ?  When surveyed, customers said they wanted fuel efficient cars.  When available, they bought muscle cars instead.  Advertising does influence the market.  'Image' is a big factor in selling a car.

And Lobbyists influence the market.  Can you list all of the industries that get government subsidies ?  Oil and Ethanol are 2 big ones.  That skews the market.  However, the favorite argument is to ignore the subsidies that support your pet projects, and highlight the subsidies of the competition.  And these 'corrupting / unbalancing' factors are so pervasive and ingrained that they can never be undone.  The 'facts', or the 'truth', lie somewhere between the two extremes.

William K.
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Glimpse into the minds of electric car advocates
William K.   4/25/2012 7:47:47 AM
It is very important to understand that the closest thing to an accurate portrayal of reality provided by the entertainmant people is "Road Runner and Coyote", and that everything else is a real stretch. 

The limiting thing does seem to be the battery challenge, but there is also the very important issue of who will be able to service these vehicles, and how much will it cost. That problem is capable of totally killing mass produced electric vehicles as a viable option.

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Re: Still not quite ready for prime time...
dbues   4/24/2012 9:06:50 PM
Now that we are back to the Tesla Roadster, have you ever driven one???

I drove my uncle's and it is an ABSOLUTE SCREAM!!!

It's worth every nickel for the experience, but absolutely makes no sense economically.

Charles Murray
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Re: Still not quite ready for prime time...
Charles Murray   4/24/2012 7:59:13 PM
Kf2qd, you are correct about those of average income not being as likely to opt for an EV. A study by Deloitte Consulting said that among early adopters, "average incomes are expected to be in excess of $200,000." GM has also said that average incomes of Volt buyers are $175,000.

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Re: Hype and Hoopla
ChasChas   4/24/2012 2:33:02 PM

Let's keep it simple, solarsculptor.

Only three things drive the market - the buyer wants to buy it, the buyer needs to buy it, or the buyer is forced to buy it. If you want to sell something, pick your method.

EV's have not found a sustainable method, yet.


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Absalom   4/24/2012 2:30:44 PM
The 50 mpg cafe standard will have to mean smaller, lighter, weaker and less comfortable vehicles. I think I can keep my 4wd Dodge Ram running for the next 50 years if there is no suitable replacement vehicle.

If the powers that be manipulate the fossil fuel costs to force us into EV's the economic damage to all industries will result in fewer people buying any kind of new vehicle. That won't help sales.

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Re: Hype and Hoopla
solarsculptor   4/24/2012 2:09:27 PM
ChasChas I'm not sure what you mean by indoctrinated, I was trying to look at this from an Anthropological(the study of mankind) point of view. In that context we have to face the fact the invention of money (money is an invention not a law of nature) coinsided with the invention of government, to have money you need rules (whose is it? is it blue or red clamshells ect.) so saying govenment protected mopolies is meaningless. All commerce transacted with money is government protected on some level. Big government means lots of money, tiny government means hardly any (compare Bangladesh vs USA) . There is a third way that markets adjust, that is extralegally, no laws have yet been thought of because whatever is being sold is too new to attract notice!

Jerry dycus
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Re: EV's
Jerry dycus   4/24/2012 1:40:49 PM

  First the movie was done by EV consumers pissed their EV-1's got taken away and crushed for no good reason.  GM was offered $25million for them and they would take care of an service them but GM refused.  Now what company refuses $25M for a non performing asset?

Then they sold the petent rights to Texeco/Chevron to the NiMH battery who then forced Toyota, other to stop making batteries larger than 10 amphrs.  That effectively killed the best battery available then.  Added to that the Cal CARB board stopped the EV mandate because of big money.

Now just where dores a conspricy start, end?  This certainly qualifies I think.

At the same time I got all the EV PR releases and all kinds of unknown sources  claiming batteries are killer toxic despite the fact they have been used for 100 yrs in ICE's without a problem.  And many more almost all telling lies against EV's.  We tracked many down and obviously from hired PR guns putting out misinformation campaign. 

 And it worked just look at the comments here about battery toxic waste site in an accident which with lithium not even possible in most cases, formulas. 

Facts are we haven't had available lightweight, low cost EV's to buy and once they are, they will sell well.

If you want a long distance car, then an EV's may not be for you. But a 60 mile range EV can do 90% of US trips.

Now if one needs longer range just add a generator for unlimited range at 2x's the mileage.

All the EV's problems have decent solutions. Just people don't want to find them or just can't think because of a closed mind.

A nice 1000lb EV with 100 mile range, 80 mpg, recharge in 15 minutes nd with an optional 5kw generator, unlimited range at over 100mpg, could be built in composites and in real mass production, under 12k.  Chances of big auto building these that take their larger. more profitable sales away, about zero.

My version gets about 300mpg equivalent.  So little it is hard to notice in my $25/month electric bill.  For my EV sportwagon and Harley size EV trike costs for electric and lead batteries is $.04 and $.02/mile.  So next time yoy fill up think of me laughing all the way to the bank.   ;^P

The real reason though is oil is subsidized by about $3/gal in many ways. If the full cost accounting as our repub friends aways say but never do,  the higher real cost of gasoline would drive EV sales nicely.  Even the overweight, high tech ones now offered.

Facts are oil s going up with a bullet in price and EV costs are dropping.  Plus you wouldn't be paying for both sides of the oil wars that have helped bring our country to our knees along with stupid Repub energy, tax, regulation policies. Of course none of these costs are in you gasoline price but along with many other costs, in out income taxes , healthcare costs, etc. 

As for your ICe beating an EV, google EV racing and see if you can beat them?  I doubt it because even the Viper club won't race them anymore as tired of getting beat by EV's. Was bad for ther image.

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Re: Still not quite ready for prime time...
ssc3k   4/24/2012 1:39:31 PM
Market will adjust the production cost in the end and continuously push the technology moving forward. No need to worry too much about the cost for what you see today. 50 years ago, not too many people could affordded a car as well. As long as everybody think higher efficience is the goal to pursuit, it will become better and cheaper. Why see so negitive on new stuff. Is there any reason to accept lagging behind and getting big punch in the competition? Stay on traditional gas car is not the solution. Maybe need step out to see what world is doing.

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