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FrankWye
User Rank
Iron
Re: Hybrid Loyalty
FrankWye   4/25/2012 1:06:22 PM
NO RATINGS
If you gave me dates for "massacres" I could look them up to see if it was a result of terrorism or not.

Yes, all countries' boundaries are artificial constructs. But it is the legal structure for dealing internationally with representatives of the people in the area.

bwilson4web
User Rank
Gold
Re: Why Hybrids aren't selling now
bwilson4web   4/25/2012 5:36:04 AM
NO RATINGS
It would be helpful to post the URL for the "www.autonews.com" article. Attempts to use their search engine with "Prius 3042 2295" failed and even Google's advanced search functions could not find the article described. But the specific curb weights reported can be found using "www.edmunds.com" to find:

  • 3247 lbs - Prius v, 1.8L, automatic, midsize station wagon - 97/34 ft{3}
  • 3165 lbs - Prius plug-in, 1.8L, automatic, midsize - 94/22 ft{3}
  • 3042 lbs - Prius, 1.8L, automatic, midsize - 94/22 ft{3}
  • 2500 lbs - Prius c, 1.5L, automatic, compact - 87/17 ft{3}
  • 2315 lbs - Yaris, 1.5L, automatic, compact - 87/13 ft{3}
  • 2295 lbs - Yaris, 1.5L, manual, compact - 87/13 ft{3}


The curb weight numbers reported in the un-searchable "Automotive News" article are exactly the same reported for the 1.8L, automatic transmission, full-size Prius and the 1.5L, manual transmission, compact, Yaris.

The "Prius c" is a new car and the SAE has two, excellent papers describing the technology:

  • 2012-01-1017 - "Development of the New THS-II Powertrain for Compact Vehicles," Takashi Uehara, Yasuhiro Takashi, Ryoji Oki, Takahiko Hirasawa, Yuskue Kamijyo, Ikuo Ando, Tyuta Teraya and Makoto Nakamura - summary of the car including the smallest battery pack, 20 modules versus the current 28 and original 38 modules.
  • 2012-01-0636 - "Development of New Hybrid Transaxle for Sub-Compact-Class Vehicles," Tomoaki Furukawa, Ryuji Ibaraki, Hiroaki Kimura, Koichi Kondo, Masato Watanabe, Tatsukiko Mizutani, Hiroyuki Hattori and Akira Takasaki - specifics about how the transmission is smaller, weights less, and cooling improvements.
A little pricy at $23/each, they provide technical details not available until this month, April 2012.

Bob Wilson

Rigby5
User Rank
Gold
Re: Why is the Israel / Arab issue here at all
Rigby5   4/24/2012 1:47:02 PM
NO RATINGS
GlennA : History is not vague or beliefs, but can be researched and known as fact, if one is willing to look at enough sources.  Israel is clearly in the wrong because of its continual violations of law.  The UN has hundreds of ruling against violations by Israel that the US blocks any enforcement on.  There is no doubt of guilt.  Dispossing indigenous populations should be hated.  There is no excuse for that.

But Shiite and Sunni has nothing to do with Arabs, but is a Islamic faction split similar to Protestants and Catholics.  Similarly Iran is not Arab, and their conflict was over the fact Iraq was secular, (at least it was until we invaded).

No one is bent on giving Israel to the Palestinians.  The land in Palestine and Israel simply has been owned by Arab families for over 7,000 years, until just 60 years ago, and those families must be allowed back into their homes.  There is no other choice.  It is a legal, ethical, and moral imperitive.  Offering Palestinians other land is pointless.  There is no blood on Palestinian hands at all.  Anything they have done or will do is justified by the massacres of Arab in 1948.  If someone breaks into your home and muders your daugher, you do not have blood on your hands when you kill them.  The European Jews did not have to go to the Mideast after WWII was over.  Europe was by far the safest place in the world at that time.  And they did not have to try to take over and murder all the Palestinians.  They are the ones with the choices and decided on violence.

Rigby5
User Rank
Gold
Re: Why Hybrids aren't selling now
Rigby5   4/24/2012 1:30:24 PM
NO RATINGS
MIROX :  It is wrong to consider things like ABS, Stability Control, Tire Pressure monitors, Seat Belt pre-tensionners, airbags, and instant by voice Internet access while you drive as being improvement.  They most definitely are NOT!

Not only can any good driver stop at least 15% shorter than ABS, but ABS is extremely fragile, expensive, and can easily cause deadly accidents.  Probably one of the worst things they ever did to cars.  The last thing you want to make "fly by wire" is the braking system.  And it can't every work well because it can never actually know the ground speed, (unless you add RADAR or something).  So all it can do is oscillate back and forth between extremes, never finding the sweet spot in the middle, which any good driver can easily do.

Airbags are dangerous, explosive, expensive, and have extremely delicate and unreliable sensors.  The basic concept is absurd, in that they prevent the driver from being able to continue driving, if the car does not come to an immediate halt after first contact.  That almost ensure death instead of saving lives.  Much, much better would simply to use active restraints and permanent padding.  You don't see race car drivers or amusment park rides using air bags, and never will.  They use more sane permanent devices.

I have seen tire pressure monitors and stability control go bad so often that I can tell you don't actually ever deal with cars more than 4 years old.  These systems are just plain silly.  You would never see a pilot trusting systems like that, and car drivers should not be deceived by advertising hype on these systems that don't work.

And no, not one of these things are required by law.  As long as one has better restraint systems, you do not have to have airbags.  Nor is ABS required by law.  Laws can never require features that have been proven to be ineffective and not as good as the alternatives.


GlennA
User Rank
Gold
Re: Why is the Israel / Arab issue here at all
GlennA   4/24/2012 1:03:09 PM
NO RATINGS
Rigby5; As you said, there is a lot of misinformation.  Somewhere between the two sides is the truth.  As far as 'true' history, Iran denies the Holocaust.  "Whoever controls the Present controls the Past.  Whoever controls the Past controls the Future".  What makes you believe that you are privy to the absolute Truth ?  Why are you so biased against Israel ?  At times I have had co-workers who were Palestinian etc, and the hatred they openly expressed for Israel (and any 'infidel') was shocking to me.  I was also surprised that they had open contempt for any other Palestinian who was not a blood relative.  Did you not read of the conflicts between Sunni and Shiite ?  Or between Iraq and Iran pre the Bush invasion ?  Why is it the Arabs are so bent on giving Israel to the Palestinians  ?  Because they refuse to give any of their own territory to them because of tribal hatreds.  Both sides in this have blood on their hands.  Why do you minimize the Arab contribution to this conflict ?

MIROX
User Rank
Platinum
Re: Why Hybrids aren't selling now
MIROX   4/24/2012 12:58:01 PM
NO RATINGS
Point is that current Yaris and Prius C are two totally different vehicles desinged by different engineering teams, made in different factories.

The only fair comparison would be to IDENTICAL car with and without hybrid, and that is EXACTLY what TOYOTA egnineers did in November 2011 while working on Gen 4 PRIUS (that is the NEXT generation as they are officially on Gen 3 at this time).

Reality is that LIGHTER vehicles end up costing more to produce, and to have identical car that is say 500 lbs lighter at $2,500 premium just would not sell if both had IDENTICAL ENGINES, looks and equipment that is ALL ELSE is IDENTICAL.

SO that is why such test prototype research car will NEVER be produced, but still it is interesting excecise for the Engineers and Designers that work for the OEM.

GM built close to Hundred cars over 5 years with VOLT technology using standard production platforms for testing - Malibus, Opels, etc.

It was great development tool, but if you'd try to sell Plug-In Malibu for $$$$$ extra, would anyone but Government Agencies buy one ?

Probably NOT.

MIROX
User Rank
Platinum
Re: Why Hybrids aren't selling now
MIROX   4/24/2012 12:42:46 PM
The Gen 4 PRIUS is not even produced yet, but in November 2011 TOYOTA made identical car both with and without Hybrid technology, so the comparison is apples to apples and not apples to oranges.

Or on vehicles that are 10 years appart in production.

One main reason PRIUS is such a success where HONDA, FORD and others have failed to sustain any sales is exactly because people can compare IDENTICAL Hybrid and Non-Hybrid cars the same day on the dealer lot - and no matter how you slice it - car made on the same day that is "hybrid" is heavier and costs up to $4,500 more unless the OEM has discontinued clearance sale on them at less than euqivalent ICE car (FORD did that more than once).

The weight numbers were from TOYOTA, the other stuff calculations used in normal Automotive engineering where 100 lbs of extra weight is considered to make up to 2% negative impact on fuel economy - but 1.8% is more typical and reproducible on any vehicle with load of bricks in your luggage space - EPA did that at least 5 times over last 20 years - and while "technology" as changed a lot the impact of extra weight on fuel economy did not by much.

Yet EVERY major well selling vehicle has gained SIZE (greater aerodynamic drag) and WEIGHT - the most common exuse is because of the EXTRA SAFETY EQUIPMENT that is mandated by NHTSA.

12 Air bags with ECU to controll them and bits and pieces to mount them and hide them from view, both COST and WEIGH more than ZERO Air Bags, for example.

Same goes for ABS, Stability Control, Tire Pressure monitors, Seat Belt pre-tensionners, and on and on now add the instant by voice Internet access while you drive - all that was NOT on any vehicle at any price 70 years ago !!!

But you can not sell even one vehicle in USA (unless it is Motorcycle) without them.

Rigby5
User Rank
Gold
Re: Why is the Israel / Arab issue here at all
Rigby5   4/24/2012 11:34:51 AM
NO RATINGS
GlennA : No, you most certainly are not a history expert, but I do not blame you because there is so much misinformation out there.  But clearly Israel admitted starting the 1967 war themselves.  They said it was a pre-emptive strike because they felt the Egyptians were massing in the Sinai for an attack, but that is false.

And it is easy to tell that the version of history you have been told is false.  For the Palestinians never had any arms or army.  They never started or were ever involved in any war, except as unarmed victims.  If Egypt were to attack Israel, that would somehow justify Israel invading Jerusalem and forcing all the Arabs from their homes?  Clearly that is nonsense.

As to who the land belongs to, by all measures, historic, legal, moral etc., it is Palestinian.  We can't give the US back to the Native Americans because they are long dead.  We gave the remnants more land per person then they used to have 200 years ago.  But the victims and the thieves in Israel and Palestine still live.  We not only can right these wrong, but must.  It is a legal and moral imperative.  We will have severe world unrest and war until we have international law.

And I have never heard anything as silly as the claim of tribal conflict.  Is there tribal conflict in Saudi Arabia, the center of the Arab tribes?  For over 1000 years, the Arabs had the most advanced civilization in the world.  The Renaissance was just because of what little the Crusaders brought back with them from the Mideast.

Rigby5
User Rank
Gold
Re: Hybrid Loyalty
Rigby5   4/24/2012 11:24:07 AM
NO RATINGS
MIROX :  You said, "
I rest my case, no need to say anything more !!!"



And only an idiot would claim internal combustion engines of 70 years ago did not already have all the features of modern engines.  If you think there has been a single improvement, then you could have told us one.  But you can not.  The fact they ran overhead cam by chain and most cars use a cheap rubber belt now, is NOT an improvement, but a cost saver.  Electronic fuel injection is not nearly as reliable or perform as well as mechanical injection.  There is nothing at all that has been improved upon except costs.

GlennA
User Rank
Gold
Why is the Israel / Arab issue here at all
GlennA   4/24/2012 9:20:24 AM
NO RATINGS
I am not a History Expert.  I do recall hearing about a war in 1967 that was started by the Arabs, against Israel, in which the Arabs lost territory, and then whined about Israel winning.  I have no sympathy for the Arabs.  IMHO the Arabs (if that can be considered a real designation) are tribal, and are only distracted from fighting amongst their tribes by the 'common enemy' of Israel.  If Israel were ever 'driven into the sea', then the Arabs would return to their tribal conflicts.  'Peace in the Middle East' has long been, and will continue to be, a pipe dream.

Aside from that, who decides to whom land belongs ?  Does the United States properly belong to the extinct humans that pre-dated the Native American tribes ?

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