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GlennA
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Gold
Re: Why Hybrids aren't selling now
GlennA   4/24/2012 9:09:30 AM
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I like your logic and your conclusions.  I have also seen a similar false comparison - the Prius to an Italian made small diesel not available in the U.S.  The Italian car got 45 mpg highway compared to 50 overall for the Prius, but the Italian cat won 'because it was more fun to drive'.  That logic made no sense at all, to me.

GlennA
User Rank
Gold
Re: Two Mode = over promise, under deliver
GlennA   4/24/2012 8:51:27 AM
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Hybrid performance must be in the mind of the beholder.

I have a 2009 Chrysler Aspen 5.7 liter Hemi Two Mode Hybrid, similar to the GM that you say over-promised and under-delivered.  I am happy with my hybrid - it meets my expectations.  It was time to replace my Jeep Grand Cherokee, 4.7 liter, 4 wheel drive.  I didn't keep close records of my average gas mileage, but it was about 18 mpg.  The Aspen is bigger = 8 passenger, has all-wheel drive, and I usually average 22 mpg - to me a 20% improvement.  The clincher was that Jeep no longer makes a 4.7, so to get a Jeep I would have gone to a 5.7 anyway, and the newer Jeeps don't have enough head room for me (as I don't recline the seat to a sleeping position to drive).  I balked at buying an Aspen or Durango while looking for a replacement for the Jeep, until I accidentally found the hybrid Aspen.  My wife has a 2010 Prius and gets about 50 mpg.  Neither of us will drive enough miles to get a return on our 'hybrid investment', but that was not our prime concern.

When alternative fuels gain market share - propane, compressed natural gas, (hydrogen is iffy) - the 'energy recovery' of the hybrid design will help to make them practical.

bwilson4web
User Rank
Gold
Re: Why Hybrids aren't selling now
bwilson4web   4/24/2012 4:50:01 AM
NO RATINGS
It is not a fair comparison to select a car "not available in the USA market" and ignore the latest hybrid technologies. We have no idea about how much extra stuff was taken out of the not-for-USA car such as emission controls, transmission auto/manual, and air conditioning. The USA has safety requirements that a special pleadings car might skip.

It is more accurate to compare the 'Prius c' and 'Yaris' as both are available in the USA and reflect Toyota's most recent hybrid and car technologies:
  • Prius c -> 2,500 lbs, 87.4 ft{3} passenger, 17.1 ft{3} cargo, automatic
  • Yaris -> 2,315 lbs, 85.1 ft{3} passenger, 15.6 ft{3} cargo, automatic

The hybrid weight increase is 185/2,315 = 8%, 185 lbs for the hybrid componets. Both are 1.5L hatchbacks but the Prius c has more interior space.

The Prius c gets ~50 MPG versus 32 MPG for the Yaris, or 35% higher fuel economy over the Yaris. So the Prius c has a smaller fuel tank, 9.5 vs 11.1 gallons. The Yaris carries 1.6/9.5 = ~17% more gasoline or an extra $5/fill-up. With a Yaris range of 320 miles versus the Prius c 428 miles or 25% less range for the Yaris:
  • 4 Yaris tanks ~= 3 Prius c tanks in miles covered
  • Yaris tanks cost ~$5 more per tank

BTW, the 'Prius c' and the '2001-03 Prius' are similar, 1.5L hybrids separated by 10 years of hybrid advances. Although the Prius c is a hatchback and the older one a sedan, the weight went from 2765 to 2500, nearly 265 lbs saved in a decade. 

A fair comparison uses vehicles from the same manufacture, same body style, same engine size and sold in the same market, say USA configured. The "Prius c" and "Yaris" meet these requirements and the weight, payload, and mileage differences show how Toyota hybrid technology continues to improve.

Bob Wilson

 

MIROX
User Rank
Platinum
Re: Why Hybrids aren't selling now
MIROX   4/24/2012 2:05:30 AM
NO RATINGS
TOYOTA's OWN data published in Automotive News shows GEn 4 PRIUS as vehicle with Curb weight (lb.) of 3042, while identical test vehicle wihtout the Hybrid components and only with the same ICE engine  (not made for sale in USA however)

Curb weight (lb.) is only 2295

 

 

3042-2295=747 

= 25% of the vehicle Curb weight !!! - is the dedicated Hybrid Stuff

= 33% Weight PENALTY

= 265% Greater power/torque needed to have equivalent performance

= NON Hybrid PRIUS otherwise identical would do just fine with 42 Hp Engine - WOW



Unfortunately TOYOTA enginers did not go as far as testing the MPG on the "non-hybrid" equivalent, the car was only built as "development excercise" - most likely it would be about the same......[my guess].



MIROX
User Rank
Platinum
Re: Hybrid Loyalty
MIROX   4/24/2012 1:40:29 AM
NO RATINGS
Rigby5

Your Statement:

 

"there have really been no significant improvment in cars in the last 70 years"

 

I rest my case, no need to say anything more !!!

Rigby5
User Rank
Gold
Re: Hybrid Loyalty
Rigby5   4/24/2012 1:17:35 AM
NO RATINGS
MIROX :  Anyone who knows anything about cars knows that unlike computers and cell phones, there have really been no significant improvment in cars in the last 70 years, nor can there be any.  I studied a 1937 Mercedes that got 35 mpg, could run on just about anything flammable, and performed as well as any modern car. The only difference is that it cost hundres of thousands of dollars, but economy of scale is not a technological break through.

It destroys the economy for use to waste resources constantly replacing things designed to wear out prematurely.  It is a dispicable practice.

Rigby5
User Rank
Gold
Re: Why Hybrids aren't selling now
Rigby5   4/24/2012 1:11:07 AM
NO RATINGS
Wrong again.  Battery replacement on a hybrid is only about $1500, and less then 4% of all Prius vehicles sold, beginning in 2000, have had to have new batteries.


<http://www.toyota.com/web/vehicles/prius/safety/prius_erg_1.pdf>

And the Prius the battery pack is listed as having a nominal voltage of 274V and
weighing a total of 100 lbs.  It says the batteries come in 38
7.4V packs weighing 2.2lbs each. Not 450 to 900 pounds.

MIROX
User Rank
Platinum
Re: Hybrid Loyalty
MIROX   4/24/2012 12:14:11 AM
NO RATINGS
Rigby5



The Ideal country for you to move to NOW is CUBA

Dream Economy that refuses to see what is going on in the rest of the World, produces next to nothing and keep 1950' cars running "forever"

I will be happy to buy you one way ticket on a barge !!!

You will live in eternal bliss once you get there.........



MIROX
User Rank
Platinum
Re: Hybrid Loyalty
MIROX   4/24/2012 12:05:21 AM
Well unfortunately you do not comprehend that 82% of business for OEM is not the same as 82% of "population"

And you are totally missing the point of the article:

Polk's study revealed that only 35 percent of hybrid owners chose to purchase a hybrid again when returning to the market in 2011. The repurchase rate was even lower -- under 25 percent -- when owners of the Toyota Prius were excluded from the statistics.

Here are Brand Loyalty rates:

For conventional ICE vehicles

 

1-year

68%

2-year

53%

3-year

46%

5-year

44%

8-year

40%

10-year

23%
If you are not too cheap to spend $$$ you can by all the automotive data for last 32 years form Automotive News, J D Power, R L Polk, and get all the longevity data from NHTSA and DOT as well as EPA - must be heck of a conspiracy if all Government Agencies do not reflect the Data that you "believe" !


Rigby5
User Rank
Gold
Re: Hybrid Loyalty
Rigby5   4/23/2012 11:23:12 PM
NO RATINGS
MIROX :  That is ridiculous.  If 82% of the population only kept a car for 4 or 5 years, then there would be about 4 or 5 times as many used cars on the market, as there were new cars.  But if 82% of the population was buying new cars all the time, there would be no one to buy these used cars.  But the reality is that there are very few used cars on the market.  Ever since the clunkers for cash, the used car market is tighter than a drum.  You own statistics, that only 12 million new cars were sold, while 40 million used cars changed hands, shows that the number of people keeping cars beyond 4 or 5 years is almost 4 times the number of people buying new cars all the time.

You know nothing about the car market.

Of course no OEM caters to buyers who want to keep their cars forever, because they are idiots.  In the past they knew that the attraction of cars like Volvo, Mercedes, VW, etc.,  was how long they lasted.

Planned obselecence is just plain stupid.  It is just wasteful and buyers quickly catch on.  Why do you think US car sales are doing so badly?

And with global total production of only 77 million cars a year, it is impossible for the US market to be consuming 12 million of them.  That is probably much more likely total US production, most of which are exported.

It is people like you, touting planned obselecence that is ruining our whole economy.  If we keep making cars that don't last, people will buy elsewhere.

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