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Rigby5
User Rank
Gold
Re: Hybrid Loyalty
Rigby5   4/20/2012 4:18:03 PM
NO RATINGS
FrankWye : The problem with letting the cost control the market is that there are actually at least 2 different mixed markets.  And it would be a disaster to allow the recreational transportation market pay the same price for oil as the food production and distribution market, as they are now.

The goal is not to force change by raising prices at the pump, but to have recreational use subsidize food production uses.

Remember, that the only reason Malthus was wrong was because of the invention of means of exploiting oil in food production and distribution.  If we allow oil to be taken out of food production and distribution, we end up back at the situation predicted in 1835, only much, much worse because of population growth.

Denny
User Rank
Iron
Re: Hybrid Loyalty
Denny   4/20/2012 4:14:38 PM
NO RATINGS
Most Hybrids can't be charged by any other means then the vehicle itself period.

 

FrankWye
User Rank
Iron
Re: Consumers not Accepting GREEN Marketing at Face Value
FrankWye   4/20/2012 4:14:27 PM
NO RATINGS
Rigby - National Geographic Reports:

In 2005 data from NASA's Mars Global Surveyor and Odyssey missions revealed that the carbon dioxide "ice caps" near Mars's south pole had been diminishing for three summers in a row.

Habibullo Abdussamatov, head of space research at St. Petersburg's Pulkovo Astronomical Observatory in Russia, says the Mars data is evidence that the current global warming on Earth is being caused by changes in the sun.

"The long-term increase in solar irradiance is heating both Earth and Mars," he said.

Solar Cycles

Abdussamatov believes that changes in the sun's heat output can account for almost all the climate changes we see on both planets.

Mars and Earth, for instance, have experienced periodic ice ages throughout their histories.

Rigby5
User Rank
Gold
Re: Hybrid Loyalty
Rigby5   4/20/2012 4:11:08 PM
NO RATINGS
jijon123 :  That is not really fair.  We don't know exactly what the long term costs are going to be with hybrids.  Right now, you should not be counting in battery costs at all, because since 2000 when these hybrids started in major production, almost no battery packs have been replaced or needed replacement.

Most likely battery materials will be a valuable commodity even in defunct cells, and will be sold like lead in acid batteries, and and will not be disposed of.

So that certainly has not effected repeat buyers.  I would bet the main reason for lack of repeat business has been the lack of recharging stations, for only then is the mileage savings significant enough to warrant the extra cost.

Denny
User Rank
Iron
Re: Hybrid Loyalty
Denny   4/20/2012 4:08:07 PM
NO RATINGS
I have owned a new Honda Insight since 2003.  I am very confused when I read all the banter about hybrids.  I normally get over 60MPG sometimes as high as 66MPG.  I have never had any major problems apexcept for a rear end collision, which was repaired like new.  Originally cost 20k with 3000 tax rebate.

I sometimes don't think people know how to drive a hybrid.  The way you drive it depends on what kind of a hybrid it is.  Honda IMA needs to get up to speed quickly using the Electric boost then getting of the gas and let the gas Engine do what it is best at, keeping the car moving.  Use the boost only when needed on hills etc, don't try to stop on a dime and let the regenerative braking charge your battery while slowing down.  The added feature of the engine turning off while waiting at a stop contributes highly to the gas milage.

I have taken the car on trips over 1000 mi and shorter 200-500 trips with no problems, still using the same battery...

FrankWye
User Rank
Iron
Re: Hybrid Loyalty
FrankWye   4/20/2012 4:02:01 PM
NO RATINGS
The land west of the Jordan river was still Jordan and the problems arose because the Jordainians didn't want the Palestinians.

The UN did something illegal? It was thought by Europeans that if Isreal was given back to the Jews that it would solve the Anti-Semitic problems in Europe. The US agreed and voted with the majority.

You need to read the terrorism reports by the State Dept going back a few decades to see Saddams involvement.  He was paying Palestinians to blow themselves up, he was paying and facilitating terrorists in Philippines. The sheik that bombed the WTC in '93 had a passport from Iraq.

I think Saudi Arabia is more interested in supporting wahabism. It's extreme wahabists that are terrorizing. The Muslim Brotherhood began in Egypt and spread out.

FrankWye
User Rank
Iron
Re: Hybrid Loyalty
FrankWye   4/20/2012 3:43:00 PM
NO RATINGS
In the past, promblems create solutions usually due to cost. Somebody figures out a cheaper way of doing things or the cost becomes too great that people move to the next cheaper thing. That is why Statists want higher gas prices so that people would be more amenable to the changes they want to make. The Statist impulse is to either force everyone to do it their way and/or demonize those that don't see it their way. My only direct cost is at the pump and I prefer to create a competitive system that only charges for cost to drill plus cost to ship plus profit margin. That way drillers, shipper, distributors all compete.

If they can make an affordable "clean" car, great!

Peak oil only takes in to consideration easy to get oil, not the harder to get.

"source of energy" vs "stored energy" - you have got to be kidding.

jijoh123
User Rank
Iron
Re: Hybrid Loyalty
jijoh123   4/20/2012 3:19:10 PM
NO RATINGS
Make it cost competitive (overall cost of ownership) and I'm on board. But for now, the disparity is far to great to make it a sound financial decision, or even environmental for that matter, as no one is discussing the logistics and downside of disposing of the spent "battery cells" and hazardous materials from them. I believe that's why a great number of the 1st time buyers are not repeats. The return on investment isn't even close to being attractive, 'cause there is none... AT ALL.

MIROX
User Rank
Platinum
Re: Hybrid redux is critical to success
MIROX   4/20/2012 2:13:42 PM
NO RATINGS
Rigby5  

I totally agree !

But FMVSS only requires functionality, not any replace-ability or even fuses - just this week there are NHTSA recalls for BMW and Bentley where the "auxiliary" electric driven water pump melts and goes up in smoke - NO FUSE there - and reportedly few vehicles have already burned up.

Consumer Reports, AutoWeek or any of the more than dozen automotive webs that get FREE rides as promotion from MFG, NEVER EVER NEVER even tell you if you can FIND things like ATF dipstick (not there on most new cars) or get to Oil Filter (without spending 1 hour to remove 15 fasteners of 4 different kinds) without removing the front end underpaning that is common on most Hybrids (to reduce aero drag).

Why not quick release "latch" and why there have to be self-destrutive plastic rivets that ned to be broken ? (Or require extra expensive "special tool" to be removed ?)

If a simple engineering like access to a service part (Oil filter) is that bad or difficult, then I personally wonder about the rest of the "hybrid" design, if things that are "obvious" are "difficult" the "proprietary" technology is totally impossible to do much about by "normal" vehicle owner - for alnost all maintenance the owner manual instruct you to go to the Dealer.

May be some Hybrid owner should sue for the "excessive" cost of oil changes versus a "non-hybrid" car, hey just follow the lead that Miss Peters established - and may be we will have service-able vehicles in the future !

Rigby5
User Rank
Gold
Re: Hybrid redux is critical to success
Rigby5   4/20/2012 2:03:46 PM
MIROX : The point is when car makers prevent easy, casual maintenance by places like quick oil changes, they should be punished for that.  It is wrong for them to do that, and people should not buy any vehicle that is hard to maintenance.  If for example, the owener manual does not show how anyone can easily replace fuses or light bulbs, the maker should be sued for failing to comply with US automotive standards. 

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