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Re: transitional
Rigby5   4/19/2012 3:32:02 PM
When you consider that the Ferdinand was over 80 tons, and most cars are about 1 ton, then when you multiply that .25 mpg by 80, you get a respectible 20 mpg.

That is not bad for WWII technology, when Germany was still using steam driven trains and horses for pulling artillery.

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Re: Consumers not Accepting GREEN Marketing at Face Value
Rigby5   4/19/2012 3:26:03 PM
Sorry, that is profoundly ignorant.  There has never been a hoax associated with global warming, and instead it is far understated because there is no one who can profit from recognizing the reality of it.  Yes, the mountain reservoirs ARE melting at an alarming rate.  And Greenland is not floating ice, so no one rational would ever have compared it to a floating ice cube.  But Iceland has over a mile thick layer of ice that is rapidly flowing off rivers of fresh water into the ocean.  It is clear this is submerging the Gulf Stream, and causing all these terrible cold temperatures in Europe.  No one in the scientific community denies these realities.

But obviously it was saving money that I was also concerned about.  It is not just that gasoline is going to be over $5/gallon soon, but that in  10 years is will probably be over $20/gallon.  Anyone not looking 10 years ahead is being foolish.

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Re: Hybrid redux is critical to success
MIROX   4/19/2012 3:12:32 PM
"Honda Insight that regularly got 70mpg and EV friends of mine get 90/100mpg with it."

Will he bet his "ownership certificate" on that ???  Typical EV Hybrid - owner generated - myth = lie !!!

We have many customers with SynLube that have had Insight and over hundred that have Prius.

Those who do not lie about their MPG get about 42 to 45 in Prius.

The old Insight gets 50 MPG with AC OFF and 40 MPG with it ON (in Las Vegas or Phoenix).

I have made open bet to anyone with Prius that claims to get 60 MPG, drive from Los Angeles to Las Vegas in 5 hours and verify the MPG and I will pay you $1,000 - 5 people tried, none ever got 60 MPG - 51.8 was so fr the best, but the time was 6.2 hours, i.e. well below the normal speed on I-15

Hybrid benefit is at STOP and GO driving when the engine can be OFF at red lights, ZERO benefit at highway speed.

ANd when you turn AC ON and the engine starts in matter of seconds to power it, MPG really goes WAY WAY DOWN.

ANd actualyl people with old ECHO and even NEW YARIS, get the same or better REAL LIFE MPG, and at about $10,000 less for the vehicle, at $4.00 per gallon that buys about 100,000 miles of ful to drive "FREE" when compared to Hybrid that has a battery warranty that only lasts 80,000 miles.

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Re: Hybrid redux is critical to success
MIROX   4/19/2012 3:03:19 PM
Re: Bulb Pricing

It is TOYOTA OEM pricing issue, thinking that if average Hybrid buyer has $100,000+ family income (as per theri statistics), they deserve to be "robbed" with extreme pricing on service labor and parts.

But they are not alone NISSAN does the same with LEAF, the replacement injection cartridge for FIX a FLAT costs more than a NEW TIRE (over $200), etc.

When as OEM you are losing money on every vehicle that you make of certain type (like EV or Hybrid) just to be "market competitive" then the only way you can get some of that back is to stick it to the owner latter.


Jerry dycus
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Re: Hybrid redux is critical to success
Jerry dycus   4/19/2012 2:58:15 PM

  The bar was set by the first Honda Insight that regularly got 70mpg and EV friends of mine get 90/100mpg with it. Hand made of alum, etc as the first modern hybrid going to be a collectors car soon and a great investment if you can find one.

  Next one couldn't pick a worse time to do any comparisons because the economy, gas prices are so variable for now, it's just noise until the economy recovers from nearly falling into a depression thanks to repub oil, war, tax policies. Now they want us to elect them so they can again.

One must consider resale value and very hard to beat hybrids for that which makes up or more in Prius' case of the slightly higher costs, making the higher starting cost moot in full cost accounting.



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Re: Hybrid Loyalty
MIROX   4/19/2012 2:53:10 PM
When you separate facts and reality from fiction and hype and outright lies, then no matter how you count it Hybrid or EV DOES NOT save any money!

Cost per mile driven is at premioum when compared to conventionel ICE car or truck.

Emissions when you take the complete picture from "production" sources is at best even to ICE.

While this post is not meant to be "self promotion" I do have two businesses, one we sell LSV EV (NEV ZEV) www.okaauto.com and people are not waiting in a line to get them even at $8,000 a pop.

Then we have environmentally correct business making PERMANENT SYNTEHTIC OIL that is replacement for Petroleum and is NON-PETROLEUM, and again any sales promotions at "Earth Day Events" for both businesses, do not even pay for the cost of the space ! (www.synlube.com)

SO the fact is that "environmentalists" while making lot of noise do not spend their $$$ accordingly, they are all about promoting themselves and having this or that organization to do fund rising for themselves - i.e. just a way to make money.  The "donation" for theri cause is the way to go, but neither they or their "members" actually buy or go out of the way to be "environmentally correct".

As an example with the SynLube business we have offered for 26 years to ake back the empty one Liter bottles for RE-USE and give customers $1.00 credit per bottle returned - that can be about $6 or $10 per "oil change" but while few people actually do that - and some bottles made up to 32 tripe before being no longer suitable for re-use, only 0.02% of customers do so even with $10 incentive it is easier to throw them into trash !.

Hybrids could be slightly more attractive if the OEM offered used battery credit that is substantial, even if the vehicle is "crashed" or no longer useful reportedly over 80% of the materials in the battery pack can be recycled, but the Dealer or OEM when they sell you "new" battery act as if they do you a big favor just to take the "old" battery back !  

Even dead Pd acid battery is worth $10 or more when you buy a "new" one, so why is $$$$ Li-ion battery "worthless" ?

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Re: transitional
popuptarget   4/19/2012 2:49:57 PM
Calling the Ferdinand "sucsessful" may be a bit of an overstatement  ;)

while it would be fair to call the Panzerjager Tiger (P) a cousin of the hybrid car, I think that the average consumer would want better than its 1/4 mpg.

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Re: Consumers not Accepting GREEN Marketing at Face Value
gafisher   4/19/2012 2:16:43 PM
Please, Rigby5, try getting some of your information from reliable sources.  Over just the past few months we've been shown more evidence -- not that there was any lack -- of misstatements and outright hoaxes from the anthropogenic global warming crowd.  The Himalayas aren't melting away by 2035, Greenland isn't fading like an ice cube in a cup of coffee (as at least one formerly highly respected atlas claimed) and the New York skyline isn't the tops of a few skyscrapers sticking forlornly out of the water.  The East Anglia disgrace was just the tip of the (growing) iceberg -- failing to buy an electric golf cart won't put any innocent blood on our hands.

Saving money is the only reason for buying a hybrid; not saving lives, certainly not "saving the Planet."  I love driving the Prius -- it's a great product, and as an Engineer it tickles my fancy to drive a car that makes efficient and seamless use of two different torque signatures -- but I drive them for my own pleasure.

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Hybrid Redux
OldSkoolSyntax   4/19/2012 1:42:07 PM
Even with rebates hybribs are still relatively expensive and do not necessarily deliver great value as stated by others. Worse, they are somewhat lackluster in terms of performance and you have to sacrifice some user flexibility depending on the model chosen. GM offers a hybrid 1/2T PU with plenty of towing capability but it's expensive and the mileage gain is not that impressive. If fuel stays at $4/gal. some buyers may emerge but it's a niche market. For passenger cars it's a geek market. No emotional content at all unless you can spring for a Tesla offering both looks and performance. If you are a fan of the Big Bang Theory buy a Prius. If you are into UFC type entertainment not so much. Read any of the automotive reviews of hybrids or EV's and you don't find glowing reports. Even CR (arguably a geek publication) has yet to anoint them for all around use.     

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skeptical of article
Rigby5   4/19/2012 1:39:32 PM
What I would have to question is why take an article that quoted Edmonds as a source, seriously?  All the consumer magazine oriented companies have never been very useful or accurate, because they are marketing driven and are not really independent or unbiased at all.  All you have to do in order to get good reviews is to give them a few free loaners for a year or so.

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