catching up

Thank you Fanny and Alex.

Off the shelf equipment.

No

Understand MIMO OK.

Both. standard and implementation.

Just want to know more of 802.11 in general.

Hi! from San Jose, CA.

HW/Test R&D Engineer.

off the shelf equipment

Harsh environment

MIMO understanding is OK

both - implementation and standard

Would be nice to know about stability of 802.11 in industrial environment

HW 

Hello

Not sure yet on the price; still shopping around to see if this is worth the cost.  

The environment is similar to a small factory; somewhat harsh in that it is isolated from everything outside, but everything inside becomes that much more noise.  

MIMO may take more than that to understand, Alex! lol  But, I think that we have a pretty good base for it to move on a bit from here.  

I am interested in the specifics of the code/convention, but moreso in the actual setup and execution.  Also the troubleshooting.  

Again, predominantly hardware, but starting to dive more deeply into software.

Hello all.

Thanks, good info.

thanks!

Slides Are Great If You Didnt Get To Sign Up For THe Class

Thanks!

Thank you.

MIMO - understood well.

Learn more about the new 802.11ac.

Networking/Security.

Thanks!

fanny, 802.11af and 802.11ai have really wet my appetite for future applications. Thanks for the heads-up.

Thank you Fanny and Alex.

Day 1 and 2 added a lot of valuable knowledge to my problem solving toolbox. It was also a great way to briefly catch up on the basics of current RF systems, especially MIMO and beam forming in harsh environments.

@Alex, Fanny

Our company designs products for harsh environmental conditions; high vibration, -40C to +85C temp. Wireless communication and control is a question that comes up from prospective customers. Safety and failsafe design are parts of the designs.

is 802.11 OK for these applications?

@Alex, there was a question about what i want to know about 802.11?

Is there any affordable wireless technology, 802.11 or other that is appropriate for safety critical systems?

Better late than never, I'll listen to the archive audio

Thanks for great presentation

TGac? and TGad? stands for

Thank you!

Thanks Fanny, excellent presentation, leads to much thought

Thanks agin, FANNY.

thank you all!  talk to you tomorrow.

Some other creative antenna work is to provide optimum decorrelation between MIMO antennas (to increase MIMO performance) in a small device like a phone

Bye Fanny, bye Alex and everyone else.

interesting antenna work is going on on making antennas broadband, for example antennas that can cover 700 MHz (cellular frequencies) to 6 GHz

thank you, see you tomorrow

OK Folks, I feel there is no more activity. I will e-see you all tomorrow.

802.11 is more robust for harsh environemtns.  802.11n is not low power, but if you use 11n APs and low power client cards, this woudl still help.

FANNY: This is way too interesting to miss. But I may need to comeback to read this discussion later. Got to go.

Thank you so much.

Fanny,

By limiting the power for the wireless connection to say 70%, Is that going to create a problem with say a laptop if at close range to the AP?

TIA

FANNY: Dipole is the firt chapter in a antenna text book Any one doing research that may influence the introduction of more advanced antenna cell design?

@Fanny, for low power systems that work in harsh environments and require decent range.  What would you suggest 802.11 or 802.15.4?

Thanks for the info, hear you tomorrow

So the antenna theory now needs to be understood by the SW engineers? :)

OK, everyone, this is great forum. I feel I need to go back to electrical engineering school. How about you?

regarding antenna design - it's a difficult skill to find, but now we use smart antenna technoclogy, which is basically DSP and works with regular dipole antennas

Thanks very useful information

ah, thanks for clarification

FANNY: Manny year ago, telecommunication engineers had to learn about antenna design, which was the most dificult course in engineering school. Are folks still studying that and applying that kind of expertise inthe industry?

medium is singular; media is plural

MAC - medium vs media -- do they mean the same thing?

regarding embedded Wi-Fi, I have a list of vendors and devices and can share it.

yes... can you recommend any texts.

@Fanny, what vendors would have an OTS embedded low power solutions or evaluation kits?

the optimum way to position antennas is at 45 degree angles.  You shoudl use the same orientation of antennas (polarization) among all the communicating devies.  802.11 uses vertical polarization by convention.

Thanks

PHY os the OSI physical layer.

PHY = physical layer    MAC = media access control

PHY = physical layer; MAC = medium access

Hi Fanny! Thanks for great presentation..Do you recommand any books on the subject?

Fanny,

In the 80211.n scheme I should position the dual antennas perpendicular to each other?

TIA

FTTH definitely helps since airwaves will get more busy over time, so any cabling that's available to interconnect base stations will be used.

Fanny: I couldn't find definitions for PHY and MAC.  I think you said MAC is Medium Access Control.  What is PHY?

@ Fanny Fast initialization for mobile 60 mph or 600mph?

thanks!   (smartgrid using AES128)

Any suggestions on direction for harsh environments with little throughput requirements? Looking at low power (energy-harvesting) systems that push simple control information periodically.

FANNY: How do you see a FTTH helping the successful wireless cloud of the future? Microcells on poles?

for smartgrid they use AES128

Thanks for the response, Fanny! I appreciate all of the great information - "see" you tomorrow!

Thank you for the session!  Looking fwd to the next few.

Fanny, just curious - what security is (typically or usually used) for smartgrid applications?  I can just imagine the hacking of utility meter transmissions...

Thank you, very good session. see you tomorrow.

collision avoidance in the overlapping channels has no good solution in the market, though 802.11n protocol has added some features to address it

Thanks for a great session!

Pardon my ignorance if these techniques are already being used, but the last we need is a wireless version of Stuxnet into our WiNets.  Like military jamming techniques...

Collision avoidance in overlapping channels seems like a big problem - how is it being addressed besides hoping it doesn't happen? Are systems robust enough for packet recovery when it does?

in some military implementations frequency hopping is used for security.

Thanks.  FYI those without PowerPoint using GoogleDocs:  Your slides do not convert to Google format and almost all have unreadable parts as unconverted docs, due to incompatible fonts I think.  e.g. text runs off the bottom or under graphics.

small systems - off the shelf

Smaller companies probably more ad hoc cobbling together...

I was wondering the same thing about guardbanding - Alex. Interesting how we have progressed going from analog to digital...

Collision avoidance in overlapping channels seems like a big problem - how is it being addressed?

Multiple user MIMO is exciting -  I think I am grasping what Fanny is saying fairly well. Data rates and throughput over SISO are amazing.

Fanny, thanks for explaining the difference between throughput and data rate!

Understood Alex - we appreciate the opportunity to listen in!

Hello Everyone - I'm looking forward to Fanny's presentation today!

Thanks Fanny et al

How is freq.agility used?  I heard it in passing.  I know that security will be a big factor in pushing wireless networking out across industry.

@Fanny, what vendors that would have an OTS embedded low power solutions?

thanks, great presentation

Thanks Fanny, Thnaks Alex

Thank you Fanny and Alex - very helpful summary of 802.11(a..xyz...)

hope we can see tomarrow

Thanks Fanny and Alex!

Very valuable info. Thank you!

NAN = neighborhood area network (smart meters); PAN = personal area network (802.15, bluetooth, ZigBee)

Thanks fanny for an infiormative section

Thank you Fanny!! Do you have any recommandation on Books?

Thanks for a great couple of Webinars.  Looking forward to the rest of the week.

FANNY: Nut-shell explanation for MIMO/SISO?

Thanks Fanny!

Thank you Fanny

PAN = personal area network    NAN = neighborhood area network

Thank you Fanny, excellent presentation.

Thanks Fanny, good presentation

Thx. Fanny and Alex

Thanks Fanny.

Thank you Fanny. I will back tomorrow for Zigbee!

Look forward to tomorrow.

Thanks everyone for the number slide updates!

thanks fanny, another great presentation loaded with lots of info, thanks alex

@krhohio - I'm just after how to interface with the wireless unit.  There must be some sort of function call from the higher level firmware.

Lowest power spec ?  (Zigbee, Bluetooth LP, upcoming wifi ?)

thanks! Just like eithernet, 802.11 will take over.  Our electric company has gone WiFi for their SmartGrid implelentatioin

Great presentation - very informative and interesting to see the dynamic development of the 802.11 standard. Looking forward to tomorrow's session!

Thanks.

thanks, fanny.

thank you Fanny,

Thank you Fanny.  Great lecture.

thanks you very much. very well presented.

thank you

Thank you Fanny.  It is very educational ...

thanks

Very good presentation, Fanny, thank you.

Thank you Fanny!

Thanks for another great session - Looking forward to the rest of the series on wireless networks

Thanks You

thank-you Fanny, good presentation.

thanks Fanny

Yes we will be here tommarow

Take a well deserved breath Fanny - Thanks!

Thanks for a great session today, Fanny

thank you

thanks

thank you fanny

Thank you Fanny and Alex

How low is on the low cost device? Can we got from Digike?

didn't realize there was so many task groups

@Ran: I think that the comm stack is embedded (i.e. not an API).

Stupid question:  What is NAN and PAN?

IF MARCONI AND MAXWELL RETURNED TO THIS WORLD TODAY, THEY WOULD BE AMAZED WITH THE MESS THEY CREATED. :O)

DDC == Data Down Convert?

for a novice is there a good development kit to get you started?

@Fanny - Do the chip or module manufacturers offer the software for the comm stack via an API?

slide 32

at what volume does it make sense to DIY rather than utilize a module?

slide 31

@Fanny, what vendors would you suggest for OTS embedded low power solutions?

Fast initialization looks to be very exciting technology...that will be interesting to follow.

slide 25

Is 802.11ah is using 900Mhz band

currently on slide 23

you never get the data rate you want. (instantly)  We always want more data transfered, faster.

small systems - off the shelf

pico-cells

slide 20

@krhohio - Slide 20

20?

slide 21

20

slide 20

Security IP camera applications

ALEX: Are you refering to the Shannon frequency?

Could someone please tell me what slide Ms. M is on?

embedded implementation

TVBD?

i'm hoping to build some small projects using wireless technology in an embedded

Will need to pick a band and an architecture and try to stick with it as the company grows and adds capability.  3D models to CNC machinery, subtractive and additive processes.  Considering a leased environment to stay away from tech obsolescence.

for small instruments

Not right now. Just got some idea.

What slide please? (our IT dept seems to have blocked the streaming audio again!)

Large project - budgets in the multiple 100s of K$ for hardware plus labor at 2 to 3 X the HW cost

Intense planning ~150 sites, WLAN based RTLS systems throughout.

Need to add embedded soon though.

for now off-the-shelf; have done some embedded work (software) on custom hardware in past

OTS equipment

target is limited range, low cost

small and off the shelf.

Not at the moment.

Embedded Solutions with off the Shelf components

inexpensive embedded systems (HW cost is critical) Turn Key is desired but not required.

and ad-hoc

i'm planning on doing small projects using cots.

Alex, is the Q how much are we going to spend at digikey or in general?

Off the shelf equiptment mostly.

Northern illinois coverage.

mostly stepwise adaptation due to the changing of wireless technology, interop will be key consideration

small embedded

adhoc, using COTS equipment

adhoc networks, hoping to use of the shelf equipment

Small projects with COTS

ad-hoc, building wide only.

ad hoc, if possible, OTS would be nice, if it worked

Small, cobbled, off the shelf, <#30 us

not I

adhoc, small, inexpensive off the shelf network(s)

Not in the finance part of the decision team.

small ots systems

off the shelf equip

ANSWER: ARE YOU DOING INTENSE PLANNING OR IMPLEMENTING AD-HOC WI-FI NETS?

Harsh: welding, multiple, variable freq AC aluminum welding, arcing, etc.  Robotic controllers, some shielded walls.

I was wondering the same thing about guardbanding - Alex. Interesting how we have progressed going from analog to digital...

What would be the range for wifi

The closer for WiFi the better the speed.

Mostly harsh factory environments, plus I have to design and test in a building that houses a facility that makes bomb fuzes.

I upgraded from 802.11g to 802.11n router at my home, and wireless streaming is orders of magnitude better. Now I understand why.

may be in high rise building inviorment.

"harsh environment" - set up WiFi for father-in-law - 802.11n routers over longish line-of-sight (100+ feet) - still slower-than-expected throughput (or slower than I'd like...)

HARSH ENVIRONMENT: will need to be continuwously redefined. The more frequency band and protocols overlaps on the street, "harsh" will end up moving from the factory floor to the streets.

think later will design for military and/or space type enviornment

Define harsh environment - I work for hospitals.  The buildings are NOT wi-fi friendly

not harsh, but many transmitters

Not at this time, but it is always a consideration when designing any system when trying to brainstorm future implementations - if can be designed in easily up front - could more easliy create a market solution later.

Factory, desert, remote locations with advers weather.

Factory and Refinery plant inviorment

not in harsh env

just normal indoors/outdoor environments

@Alex: if I hit refresh, I'm getting the audio stream from begining, I've tried many times, also with logout/login, still same issue

2-way WLS on a gas powered uP controlled lawnmower.  Harsh enough?  :)

No harsh environment

@Alex - If we were to impliment, it would not be so much a harsh enviroment as it would be a crowded (highly populated) environment.

Not at this time, but think I may have a need within a year or two.

Factory environment

Large building with warehouse shelves.  5x 802.11g routers.

Yes..Remote open field for data collection.

not in harsh environment

Mostly Residential/Light Commercial Applications

Yes - Commercial/Industrial environments.

yes..mobile network in urban environment

Not considering harsh env at this time.

yes, network in a rural area

WHO's IMPLEMENTING IN HARSH ENVIRONMENTS?

No, Not Me!

wireless on factory floor

factory

Fanny@ Is there any diference for Antenna size in MIMO and SISO?

that explains a lot about my local wifi and the neighbors :-D

Beam forming clarification would be nice.  Can you expound?

FANNY: I wonder if wireless science will end up becoming a "babel-tower" big mess!

Collision avoidance in overlapping channels seems like a big problem - how is it being addressed?

finally got audio back

mimi ok

agree with slide 13, what i'm use to seeing designing iff

More MIMO please!

Any frequency hopping problem with 802.11

good with MIMO...interested in more about adhoc networks

SLide 13.  Looks like basic radar topics...Beam-forming, etc.

no problems

MIMO fine

Good with MIMO, Thanks

audio is back for me...

Multiple user MIMO is exciting -  I think I am grasping what Fanny is saying fairly well. Data rates and throughput over SISO are amazing.

can you explain about wi-fi mesh networks?

MIMO very good!

Good with MIMO

ALEX: LOOKS LIKE SOME FOLKS STILL STRUGGLE WITH AUDIO.

@Alex - MIMO: Got it.  Differences between TGac and TGad is a little "iffy" right now.

I guess I understand MIMO... still unsure how beamforming works.

Clear on MIMO.  Hopeful lowest power choice is clarified.

think I have the MIMO OK

MIMO OK

I'm comfortable with MIMO.

audio is ok

understand MIMO ok.

MIMo: multi Input, Multi Output

Got MIMO. No need for further insight at this time.

I now know what MIMO is about in general

I got the MIMO.

OK with MIMO

After dropping audio, try refreshing the browser.  Seemed to work.

PHY = physical layer (not interface)

understand

MIMO - got it.

don't understand MIMO/SISO

more will be apperciated.

more

OK on MIMO

Comfortable with MIMO

more details on MIMO please

MIMO is good

good enough...

nothing for me yet..  Refreshed.  buffering...

no audio

Zero luck with audio and my office is a dead zone...phooey

PHY = Physical Interface

(oops - sorry about all caps; didn't mean to 'yell' !)

whats the power consumption rate in present 802.11

got audio back

Fanny: Please define PHY.  Thanks

thanks, i have audio now!

After several attempts, I've not ever had audio. I am able to receive audio on other vendor webinars.

@MazianLab - I couldn't send anything (PDFs) without permission from designnews - I believe the audio is available (later?) for replaying (and maybe downloading)

audio came back...

Back button, reenter p/w, audio restored.

Have to refresh to get audio back ...

Audio back now for me!

I think the lecture should be rewound a little.

hit refresh and audio is back

thanks

Audio returned w/o intervention for mabout 5 sec. 

reload the page 

802.11 alpabet soup

has gone nuts

Just got audio back.  On slide 10

now slide 10

refresh to fix audio

page refresh fixed my sound

Audio is back

no audio

you can capture the audio using the more curreent RealPlayer.

For me audio is working fine

lost audio

lost audio

lost audio

Lost audio

She's back!

I can't hear Alex

Refreshing the page brings audio back.

F5 worked for me

audio is back

I think it was a long term destructive interference.

ahh better

Audio came back.

Stil waiting for the stream to restart ...

Audio is back!!

i'm back

log out & back in.  Audio comes back...

lost audio

up to what bandwidth can be possibile with current 802.11

No sound on this end.

Lost Audio

refresh isn't working to restore audio

Lost Audio

seems everyone lost audio

Audio dropped out.  "Blogtalk radio."  "Buffering."

Lost audio

it reset on mine too...

my audio just glitched too!

me to

Censorship?

No audio.

same

What happen? No audio for me!

it all dropped

Radio silence here... refresh did not help....

I lost audio as well

my audio just dropped out

just loss the sound ?

Lost the stream

Got her back.  Good.

lost audio

I lost audio

I think we lost her.

Just lost the audio stream.

@jschchter...I am not sure what browser you use..if IE, try to download Firefox.

I'm interested in the standards, to help with transmission to high security remote robots through frequency blocking technologies

@ please do a favor to us and if you can download the audio files.

Both

how/can you demonstrate determinism for functions

info about standards is good to have, helps understand arrogant vendors ... implementation details based on experience -- "how to" and "how not to" -- would be most helpful

Alex - I made PDF files of each slide deck (for myself - easier for me to use on two screens) - can I send them to you to distribute as well as the Powerpoint files?

are all these options on slide 7 commercially available today

both

this summary of the standards is helpful as well.

implementation

 implementation details

Both for me.

Implmentation, especially for devices striving for low power.

Overview of standards, implementation in detail.

KISS is my interest. If I can learn one basic protocol/scheme and be able to implement is more important than trying to understand "nothing of all.:

A liitle of standards because important to understand, but looking towards implementation

I'm lookingn for any details (standards) to help with commincations through frequency blocking technology

Implementation

Implementation

Practical application and implementation. This includes understanding the standards at a practical level.

both

standard!

Both

implementation details

I'm more interested in implemention details.

standard more than implementation

Implementation details

Both prescriptive and standard.

implementation details

more general and overview information

implementation (prescriptive)

Fanny, thanks for explaining the difference between throughput and data rate!

more interested in where the standard is headed

Implementation details

@Alex - Implimentation.

The standards for now

Both

Standards

both

Both

Looking for implementation details.

Implementation!

interested in implementation

Try to understand WiFi for upgrading refinery instruments' comunication to wirelss.

do we total these percentages. i.e. total = 330%

@gschmick - You could try Open Office.

understanding of the WiFi Tech

thanks for info (about splitting packets over streams)

Trying to get an understanding of the WiFi Tech and how we would design it into a Embedded system

Hi all

thanks for the info abt the slides, myalamanchi

Fanny, with multiple streams - is that packet-oriented or how?   (a full packet on each stream)

Hello better late than never

Thanks!

I'm just trying to get my feet wet with wireless technology, it wasn't a part of my design background.

@Alex - 802.11...  What are the new standards since 'n' Also, what might be available for someone who has not done an embedded interface to an 802.11.  How is it done?  What are the HW and firmware choices?

basics

@sherlock - yes

Alex, all most all in terms of security

Get an understanding of 802.11 standards - differences and quirks between different implementations.

FYI: For those of us w/o powerpoint, using Google Docs, most slides have unreadable parts.  e.g. Slide 3, everything after 2003 is illegible.

Embedded systems, both HW/SW. Looking for hardware requirements to implement 802.11.

Would also like to better understand how to make application specific choices

hw/sw

MIMO meahs is M-in M-out?

For the moment, an overview of the most recent upgrades to the IEEE802.11 standard.

802.11n? - availability (when, for what: personal, industrial), features, speed

Learning about AC and why it's better

Antenna Topology and tunning for 802.11

Where is the Very High Thruput wireless going in terms of frequency bands and technology

General information. HW,SW, FM,

Info for embedded devices

Almost EVERYTHING.  If it is impossible - plz give us links!

interference - primarily with zigbee

Looking for general understanding of wireless and 802.11

cost/bandwidth, usability in harsh production environments, howto deploy on a factory floor

capability for embedded systems

Just preparing myself for first safety application submittal

Like to understand the future direction of 802.11 ...  what is ac and ad in order to take advantage of the high speed and bandwidth

i'd like to learn about miwi, the low power version of wifi

How to authenticate reliably and without a user interface, e.g. from an embedded system.

n and forward

@Thasham I'm behind a corporate firewall that may be blocking the audio stream.

Basic evolution path and differences between A/G/N/AC.

802.11ac 802.11ad

general overview of the system.  How I might use it.

I want to learn things that I do not know.

A basic understanding.

Current and future developments and standards

I agree Alex - it's hard to keep up with all of the changes. I'm just wanting to get up to date...

general understanding

General information for future designs