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tekochip
User Rank
Platinum
Re: Nissan LEAF owner
tekochip   5/3/2012 7:55:23 AM
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Thanks Mark, there have been plenty of comments about the customer's experience with EVs, but not from somebody that actually owns one. 

Charles Murray
User Rank
Blogger
Re: Battery improvement curve.
Charles Murray   5/2/2012 9:27:17 PM
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Bunter, you're right on the mark. In politics and journalism, people talk about the "Moore's Law for batteries," which DOES NOT exist. Moore's Law describes a manufacturing situation -- the ability to make smaller and smaller feature sizes on a semiconductor chip. Batteries, in contrast, are subject to the laws of material science. True, manufacturing will bring the costs down to some degree, but not in a Moore's Law fashion. And manufacturing will do little or nothing for energy density. To get a sense of the history, take a look at this:

http://www.designnews.com/author.asp?section_id=1366&doc_id=235241

Charles Murray
User Rank
Blogger
Re: Battery improvement curve.
Charles Murray   4/25/2012 6:18:06 PM
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I agree on all counts, Dennis. The breakthrough will come eventually, but there's no guaratee that throwing money at it today will bring about a breakthrough tomorrow. It requires discovery, which can't be planned. Regarding the long history of battery development, see the link to the article below.

 http://www.designnews.com/author.asp?section_id=1366&doc_id=235241

Bunter
User Rank
Platinum
Battery improvement curve.
Bunter   4/19/2012 10:33:30 AM
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Just a quick thought here.

I am concerned about the trend I see (largely in the media and political world) to compare battery technology development with emerging "high tech" items.

Batteries have seen a great deal of intense development for what, 200 years?  This is a very mature industry.  Could we get a breakthrough tomorrow? Sure.  Should we continue to seek one? Abosolutely.  Should we base our forward looking game plan on the assumption that this will happen?  Count me as a bit reluctant.

Cheerio,

Dennis

Mark-In-Seattle
User Rank
Iron
Nissan LEAF owner
Mark-In-Seattle   4/13/2012 10:33:09 PM
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Just currious if any of the commentors currently own a production EV or have a friend with one ?

 

My wife and I own two ICE vehicles (can't yet bare to part with my beloved 1997 XJR) and a wonderful Nissan LEAF all-electric.   It is fun to drive, with a surprisingly enjoyable acceleration curve; constant from any starting rpm and costs us $2.10 in electricity per 100 miles here in the NW.   Since late May 2011 we have logged 7700 miles in the LEAF and 3 tankfuls of gasoline in the Volve S80 (3/4 tank in the XJR).

 

It is already eminently practical for us right now and cost less than the Volvo S80 which we purchased new several years ago.  Nissan is rumored to have the lowest EV battery cost per KwH in the industry, perhaps 1/2 their closest compeditor and the warranty for 80% charge retention is 8 years or 100k miles.  Agreed it is still a bit pricey and not for everyone, especially single car households, but gosh do yourself a favor and test drive one before any detailed critic of EV viability.

 

Thank you.

Charles Murray
User Rank
Blogger
Re: Political hot button
Charles Murray   4/11/2012 8:39:58 PM
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I should add that while I believe that delivery trucks will be the primary market, I'm not as optimistic about 2X range and 50% cost. The ace-in-the-hole, though, is the Envia battery, which is under development in conjunction with General Motors. If the Envia battery is successful, then your numbers will be right on target.

Bob Wallace
User Rank
Iron
Re: Political hot button
Bob Wallace   4/10/2012 8:46:59 PM
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Well Charles, if delivery trucks get batteries that give  2x the range at 50% to 75% of current cost then EVs and PHEVs will as well.

A 200 mile, affordable EV wil be, IMHO, the end of the gasmobile.

The next few years are going to be most interesting....

 

Charles Murray
User Rank
Blogger
Re: Political hot button
Charles Murray   4/10/2012 8:30:49 PM
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Bob, even the skeptics wouldn't argue with you about delivery trucks. Most experts I've spoken with have said that delivery vehicles will be the primary market for pure EVs.

Jack Rupert, PE
User Rank
Platinum
Re: Keeping the cost at low
Jack Rupert, PE   4/8/2012 5:10:08 PM
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Personally, I have a hard time believing any forecasts from the government (either those currenlty in who want to keep their jobs, or those currenlty out that would like to get those jobs) during an election year.  The timing and massaging of various reports and data can be suspect.

Mydesign
User Rank
Platinum
Keeping the cost at low
Mydesign   4/4/2012 6:53:12 AM
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1 saves
"The government report cites investment in advanced battery research as the reason for the projected price drop"

Unless and until without some technology development happens, how can we say that packing cost can come down? Investments, doesn't mean that cost factor can bring down. For that, low cost technologies have to develop and government also has to contribute by keeping the tax level at minimal.

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