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Rob Spiegel
User Rank
Blogger
Small component, big damage
Rob Spiegel   3/29/2012 9:48:46 AM
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It's amaging the damage a small weak component can do. I wojld imagine there may be liability issues with this accident.

bob from maine
User Rank
Platinum
Re: Small component, big damage
bob from maine   3/29/2012 3:38:23 PM
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Don't know how long you'd had this boat, but Cheoy Lee Clippers were made in the 50's and 60's, so this incident could be due to simple age. My experience with Cheoy Lee has been their hardware is of very high quality and their hulls of that era were quite over-built. Most "Bonze" shafts, propellors, seacocks, and general fittings have some zinc, though I can't remember the exact percentage. Boats that spend time at the dock, particularly where other boats have shore-power plugged-in have a tendancy to de-zinc many of their bronze underwater fittings due to stray eddy current in the water. Also the Dolphin Striker assembly is usually not disassembled during winter storage so is never checked and unfortunately is a fairly common point of failure for this reason.

Rob Spiegel
User Rank
Blogger
Re: Small component, big damage
Rob Spiegel   3/29/2012 3:43:30 PM
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Bob from Maine, it sounds like you'[re suggesting this may not be a Made by Monkeys problem but rather a simple wear-and-tear-over-many-years problem. Are there ways to check this before it causes a serious accident?

Dave Palmer
User Rank
Platinum
Re: Small component, big damage
Dave Palmer   3/29/2012 3:57:01 PM
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@Rob: As one of the articles I linked to mentions, one telltale sign of dezincification is a loose, powdery white deposit.  This is usually zinc oxide or zinc chloride, which are corrosion products of zinc. (Of course, in a marine environment, a white deposit might also be left by salt).

bob from maine
User Rank
Platinum
Re: Small component, big damage
bob from maine   3/29/2012 4:02:18 PM
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Yes, checking all underwater fittings each haul-out is important. The dolphin striker is a rod or cable that goes from the outward end of the bowsprit to a fitting, usually underwater, on the bow of the boat. There is no reason to disassemble this part except for the occasional inspection for corrosion. The part doesn't move and for the most part would be considered a permanent fixture - until it breaks. Most underwater hardware is designed to be taken-apart and cleaned, lubricated or inspected fairly easily and it is really unlikely that a turnbuckle on a dolphin striker would be made of an inferior alloy unless it was installed at some later date. I don't think I have ever seen a soft-brass turnbuckle or pin outside of a novelty shop.

dbues
User Rank
Gold
Re: Small component, big damage
dbues   4/23/2012 8:14:30 PM
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Interesting deductions, but this failure was in 1974 after owning the boat for only 6 years. 

Through-hull fittings, seacocks, propellers, and shafts are all commodity products, whereas the forestay fittings were made at the factory. 

Stray current corrosion can occur on any metal.  This is what occurs when your shore-power cord is plugged in at all times.  ESPECIALLY if some joker connects the white neutral (current-carrying conductor) to the green safety ground. 

GALVANIC corrosion is due to dissimilar metals immersed in an electrolyte.  This is where the "de-zincification" can eat you alive.

Many alloys contain a little zinc (<5%), but when the content approaches 25-35% the de-zincification can weaken the material to the consistency of a sponge.

 

dbues
User Rank
Gold
Re: Small component, big damage
dbues   4/23/2012 8:22:52 PM
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I owned a 1967 Broadwater power boat from 1992 to 1996.  I always swam around the boat once after dropping the anchor to see if there were any loose screws.  They were built with brass screws (mostly). 

In fact, they had one barrel of bronze screws at the factory in Mayo, MD, for when the Marine Surveyor came by (they hid the brass screws and rolled out the barrel of bronze ones when he was there).

I can somewhat sympatize, since the bronze screws were much softer and it was easier to strip out the phillips screw head. 

When we owned a 1966 Pacemaker in 1977, I noticed that MANY of the screw heads were stripped when they tried to drive screws into the oak frames.

wheely
User Rank
Silver
Re: Small component, big damage
wheely   4/11/2012 8:51:27 AM
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 Let that be a lesson, don't buy Chinese junk, or maybe you bought a Chinese junk. LOL

Bob Salter
User Rank
Iron
Re: Small component, big damage
Bob Salter   4/12/2012 9:06:14 AM
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My experience with the American Brass & Bronze industry has not impressed me with their quality and ethics. The bearing manufacturing I work for purchases a lot of Centrifugally Cast Bronze for bearing cages. This is preferred because centrifugally cast alloys claim "wrought" strength properties that are higher than simply cast versions. When a rash of cage structural failures occurred, we had the remains analyzed for chemistry and structure, both of which turned out "acceptable." We decided to order a few large blanks from which "dog bone" tensile specimans could be machined and tested. Ultimate (tensile) strength came back somewhat lower than claimed, so we filed a complaint with the supplier. Their response was that their product was not deficient because the industry specification that they follow allows them to keep trying new test speicmens until they obtain a group that passes. (The industry writes its own specs.) In the end we resolved ourselves to an addage frequently heard in old Western movies, "Yes, we know the game is crooked, but it's the only game in town."

Dave Palmer
User Rank
Platinum
Brass, bronze, and dezincification
Dave Palmer   3/29/2012 3:49:12 PM
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1 saves
Brass and bronze are two different things.  Brass is an alloy of copper and zinc.  Bronze is usually an alloy of copper and tin -- although there are also aluminum bronzes, manganese bronzes, and silicon bronzes, which are alloys of copper with aluminum, manganese, or silicon, respectively.  Each of these catagories (brass, bronze, aluminum bronze, etc.) includes many different alloys with different properties.

I'm not quite sure what "shop brass" is, but cheap screw machined parts are often made out of free-machining brass (UNS C36000).  This is an alloy of copper, zinc, and lead.  The lead helps to make it readily machinable.

As the article correctly points out, copper and zinc are very far apart in the galvanic series, so when a brass part is exposed to a good electrolyte (like seawater), the zinc acts as a sacrificial anode for the copper.  Ultimately, all of the zinc dissolves out of the brass, leaving a spongy mass of copper with very little strength.  I'm willing to bet that if your uncle looked at the failed part under a microscope, he would have seen this sponge-like structure.  This process is called dezincification.

Naval brass is a type of brass (usually approximately 60% copper, 40% zinc) which also contains a small amount (0.5 - 0.8%) of tin.  Small amounts of arsenic, phosphorus, or antimony might also be added.  The presence of these elements help to inhibit dezinicification.

The absolute best copper alloys for saltwater service are copper-nickel alloys.  These alloys have excellent corrosion resistance.  However, they also tend to be fairly expensive.

This article is a good example of why proper materials selection is so important.  It pays to do your homework -- or, better still, ask a metallurgist.

jljarvis
User Rank
Gold
Shop Brass
jljarvis   3/30/2012 9:45:44 AM
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The Article doesn't say when this took place, but seems to imply a recent event. 

Cheoy Lee's coming out of the Kao Shung yard in HK were known to have crappy metal fittings.  Lifeline stanchions and pulpit/pushpit are likely out of 303 or 304 stainless, not marine grade 316.   As a result, pitting and corrosion, and premature structural failure are known endemic problems with those vessels.

The author's uncle is lucky the fitting didn't fail when under dynamic load, or he would have lost the stick. 

 

steveod21
User Rank
Iron
Muntz metal
steveod21   3/30/2012 10:14:42 AM
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I'm not an expert on metals, but I couldn't help recalling how an Englishman (with a fairly un-English name) made his fortune by developing an alloy of copper and zinc which came to be known as 'Yellow Metal' (or Muntz metal, after its creator).  This was used extensively in ships, and clipper ships particularly as it happens, and the Cutty Sark and Thermopylae were full of it. Cheaper and stronger than copper alone, it was even used for bolts in some applications although its main use seems to have been for sheathing.

See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muntz_metal.  It was the comments about battery electrodes that I found strange as Yellow Metal seems to have been in great demand for maritime applications in the 19th and early 20th centuries.

Dave Palmer
User Rank
Platinum
Re: Muntz metal
Dave Palmer   3/30/2012 11:16:21 AM
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@steveod21: Muntz metal is a particular kind of brass called a duplex brass.  Like most other kinds of brass, it is susceptible to dezincification, but since sheathing was not structural, this may not have been considered to be very important.  More important were its antifouling properties -- barnacles, seaweed, algae, and other marine life don't like to attach themselves to copper, or to copper alloys such as brass.  The development of antifouling paints (most of which contain copper) brought an end to the era of metal sheathing.

Naval brass, which I described below, is very similar to Muntz metal, except for the addition of a small amount of tin (and sometimes some other elements) to prevent dezincification.

Although it is subject to dezincification, Muntz metal is resistant to many other kinds of corrosion, so it is still used in some applications.

Tool_maker
User Rank
Platinum
Owning a Yacht
Tool_maker   4/16/2012 12:42:00 PM
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This whole thread makes me feel good that I can only afford a Fish & Ski rather than such a fancy rig as this. My main corrosion problem is rusty fish hooks on favorite plugs and they are easy to replace.

 



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