HOME  |  NEWS  |  BLOGS  |  MESSAGES  |  FEATURES  |  VIDEOS  |  WEBINARS  |  RESOURCE CENTER  |  INDUSTRIES
REGISTER   |   LOGIN   |   HELP
<<  <  Page 4/6  >  >>
William K.
User Rank
Platinum
Internal combustion engines.
William K.   4/23/2012 6:37:10 PM
The fact that nobody has come up with a fundamentally different system in a hundred years is quite a testimony to the suitability of these engines to the task. There certainly have been a whole lot of important improvements that have made them work much better. My point being that the lack of a better solution is not from a lack of trying!

A thermal fuel cell that would convert petroleum directly into electricity to drive electric motors would be a nice alternative, except that the physics don't quite seem to work that way. 

The real problem is that it takes some source of energy to move a car, and the means to convert some form of chemical energy into thermal energy to drive our engines is the best found, so far. Of course, people have been searching for those alternatives also. Of course, aside from the pesky laws of physics that do limit things, we also have all kinds of safety and emissions regulations that also restrict drive options. And on top of that, we have to assure that when a car is damaged in a collision that there are no serious secondary hazards created.

So actually, given all of the constraints, the current ICE is pretty good.

Island_Al
User Rank
Gold
Engines and motors
Island_Al   4/16/2012 6:10:02 PM
First off, internal combustion (IC) technology is what, 100 years old? Still I see few improvements other than pressurized oil system, overhead valves/cam, electronic controls/fuel metering, and super finish bearings.  I see little truly radical innovation.  IC is clunker technology compared to electronics, and is super inefficient.  Last time I saw anything published, it was 12% to 20%!  That's 80% converted to noise and heat.  It requires power to cool and quite them.  I recently installed a 97% efficient furnace, which reclaims the latent heat.  Seems like innovation could really be ramped up, but as long as we coddle and bail out Big Auto, they will continue to do what they are doing. 

At risk of making many folks really irate, EVs are not non-polluting.  They simply move the pollution elsewhere.  Then there are the unseen consequences.  Battery replacement and disposal loom large, as does the impact of processing the raw materials. The metrics of dangers in crashes also have to be measured.  Other than fires in home charging stations, I have read little on this.

One of the guys I work with considered buying an EV and asked about air conditioning.  The recommendation was to run the AC at home before the car goes on the road. We line near Key West, and the 20 mile drive without AC would be pure torture, even in the winter.

My last, and biggest problem is with lawmakers pretending to be automotive engineers.  Several points come to mind.  Lawmakers mandated so-and-so PPM of pollution. Engineers responded with "smog pumps" that mix fresh air into the exhaust stream.  Same amount (or more) pollution, mixed with more air reduces the PPM percentage.  But does nothing to reduce pollution.  Another case, in the 1970s where lawmakers mandated so-and-so PPM per cubic inch engine displacement.  Result:  My 76 Caddy sported at 500CID engine that got 8mpg on the highway.  Another example:  Cash for Clunkers.  Result: A shortage of used cars to the even older high polluters are still on the road.  My solution is no to let engineers be lawmakers, but rather let us do what we do best unhampered by the Invisible Foot of government.  If nothing else put out a $10M or $100M X-Prize for a new type of high efficiency car motor, say better than 90%.  Money talks and BS walks!

If we want to see a great example of central planning in action and in transportation visit Cuba!

 

Stuart21
User Rank
Silver
Re: Dual platform fuel efficiency strategy
Stuart21   4/16/2012 10:54:16 AM
"Find ways to get more fuel."

No. I despair every time a new oli field or coal field is discovered. Currently man emits almost 50 times CO2 of earth - 8,500 M T P.A. vs 200 MT P.A. We are killing the planet. Steady state CO2 level for current emissions is ~ 1.2 % - 43 times pre industrial.

"Find ways to use less fuel."

Yes

"Find other ways to make fuel."

Yes

"Find other ways to not need fuel"

Yes Yes Yes. 

'Let your fingers do the walking'

Telecommute.

Rideshare.

Sell your car, make do with less. 

jmiller
User Rank
Platinum
Re: Dual platform fuel efficiency strategy
jmiller   3/31/2012 4:52:53 PM
I agree.  I am a big proponent of multiple different ways of attacking the issue of getting further with a limited amount of resources.

Find ways to get more fuel.

Find ways to use less fuel.

Find other ways to make fuel.

I really believe this is the key.  Multiple angles with multiple efforts that will in the end produce success.

kleetus
User Rank
Silver
Re: Internal Combustion Engines
kleetus   3/29/2012 9:53:42 AM
NO RATINGS
No I don't consider a frieight locomotive a hybrid at all, because you don't have the option of running directly from the motor to the wheels. Heck the only battery on a locomotive is to start the engine itself. 

But go the case of the jetliners... you don't see them battery or solar powered.

I do fully agree that if you want something to last, there is no replacement for displacement.

GlennA
User Rank
Gold
Re: Internal Combustion Engines
GlennA   3/29/2012 9:30:03 AM
EV hauling a freight train ?  Does that mean you don't count the diesel-electric locomotive ?  Sure, it is a hybrid.

And to other posts:  I have mentioned my 2009 Chrysler Aspen 5.7 liter Hemi Two Mode Hybrid before.  I wanted a hybrid, but I didn't want to give up the utility of my Jeep.  No, it's not perfect.  But it is an 8-passenger, all-wheel drive, and it can tow 6000 lbs.  Cars are not purchased solely on ROI.  For much of my driving it is over-kill, but I can't justify having a stable of cars and use a different vehicle just for its 'perfect match' application.

There is no replacement for cubic inches.  To get the same power out of a tiny supercharged engine is just beating it up.

Jerry dycus
User Rank
Gold
Re: Internal Combustion Engines
Jerry dycus   3/27/2012 9:32:55 PM
 

   Boy these motors are a huge 2-5% more eff!!!  Sadly they just more eff waste energy as they still only get 8-9% of the fuel's energy to actually move down the road because you only need 5-20 hp to cruise and even less coasting, idling.  Yet they scream 400hp like it's a good thing!!!

  Using an ICE for traction use in variable traffic just is not eff. Especially when EV drive is 65% or so, only using.making power as needed and only as much as needed at very high eff.

  The only real use after about 5 yrs is to recharge batteries at a constant rate of say 5-25kw while the real eff E motor handles the real work eff.

  Yet little work done on these motors to make them more eff, harder in smaller sizes, that we really need.

  One good way is a simple opposed piston, crankshafts with a common combustion chamber. Long stroke, good thermal eff, 1 or no valves, inherently balanced and lightweight.

  As for EV being practical is it just took me 32 hrs to build a Harley Service car size EV MC Trike.   That's how simple it was, just drop the motor, batts in and wire it up. Took about 2 hrs because it's so simple. A motor rebuild takes 15 minutes.

With a cabin could do yr round commuting with 60 mile range on battery and unlimited at 100+ mpg with a generator for unlimited range.  such a 75mph vehicle is little more than 2 golf carts worth of batteries, materials, labor and they sell under $5k.

I just took it on it's first 20 mile trip and at 34wthrs/mile cost me $.07 in electric at $.10kwhr of RE I pay and about the national average.  It's not much as I only paid $10.12 last month for all my home, business, transport needs.   Normally it's higher but I've cut most load to not much. Usually without heating or cooling it's $15-18/month, peak heating/cooling to $30-40/mo.  So my EV's just don't use much.

Just found out EV charge stations have been put in all over Tampa so even without a generator one can go 100 miles/day as I have before with a 40 mile range EV. Likely go to 60 mile range soon by adding 2 more batteries.

 The secret of EV's is keep them light, aero and tone down the tech and we could have nice EV's for under the price of ICE's and a running cost of 15% of ICE's.  KIS

So keep on spending your money on oil and be prepared to pay $1/yr/gal higher until it hits $10/gal in about 5 yrs.  Or switch to something that won't keep going up like methane, NG, or EV's.

 

kleetus
User Rank
Silver
Re: Internal Combustion Engines
kleetus   3/27/2012 9:05:37 PM
NO RATINGS
Unfortunately until I see an EV hauling more than people around, for example running an 18 wheeler down the road, or flying a plane, or even hauling a freight train down the tracks (I'm not counting the commuter trains because they are powered by the grid) EV technology still doesn't pack enough punch to get the job done.

Moving people around is one thing, but when you look at the overall aggregate of transportation, hauling goods is much more prevalent and demanding than moving people.

I did see some interesting designs done to ICE so far, some of which are coming to fruition by advanced control elctronics, and also 3D modeling and finally better manufacturing techniques. A couple of designs made me scratch my head and ask the question of maintenance and reliability, like cast in manifolds, water cooled manifolds and redundant direct/indirect fuel injectors.

You have to ask the question, what are we trying to attain? Better efficiency or lower 'emmissions' ? Funny how cars back in the 70's and even earlier with larger displacements could get the same mpg numbers if they were tuned up right, so the unless we forgot everything we've learned, it must be emmissions we're going after.

I just don't get it. All this for an congured up problem? Sooner or later this carbon thing is gonna come crashing down.

Charles Murray
User Rank
Blogger
Re: Where is SKY
Charles Murray   3/27/2012 6:48:08 PM
NO RATINGS
Nyeng: I was disappointed that Mazda was not in the slideshow, as well. Unfortunately, Mazda did not respond to our calls.

cvandewater
User Rank
Gold
Re: Internal Combustion Engines
cvandewater   3/27/2012 1:44:19 PM
NO RATINGS
Hi Naperlou,

We may need to agree to disagree. You appear to have a particular type of EV and usage in mind that does not make sense to people who operate EVs on a daily basis, but with your ideas of what you consider that an EV should be able to do then I can see that you claim that they are not practical, but I am afraid that it has more to do with your narrow requirements than with the EVs. Mind you - most EVs are built for a particular task and do that very well. You may not immediately recognise many of them as EVs but they are - from trains to elevators; golfcarts to pallet jacks and hundreds of thousands other vehicles.

I agree that we were talking about technology for freeway capable vehicles and also there EVs can be quite practical, if you accept that they have a particular purpose and perform it well.

If you talk about Tesla Roadster - yes, that is a sports car, a toy if you like. Almost every roadster is just that, so why not the Tesla? Thousands of people thought it was worth its price and millions were wishing they could afford one. Todays most popular EV seems to be the Leaf. One very well executed family sedan that brings a lot of value and luxury with it. Many thousands have voted with their wallet and I see more Leafs driving around each day.

Personally I am not so into the depreciation of a new vehicle, which is always a bad proposition whether ICE or EV, so I just recently bought an EV (Ford Ranger Pickup) with new batteries for 4 grand. If I just drive that EV for 20k miles then I have earned back the purchase price of the entire truck in just the displaced cost of gas and have even chipped in some for the approx $500 cost of electricity over those 2 years of driving.

The Ford Ranger will likely give me no more than 60 miles of range and I am perfectly fine with that. I had an EV truck before (S10) and it had about the same range, I used it to commute daily, run errands, cruise around town and haul heavy loads. So, it did what every other truck does - I just had to plan the trips I make enough in advance to utilize the available range or select a different vehicle for any long trips.

I see you make claims about the Tesla battery that died - that was a single occurrence and caused by neglect. Surely you are not judging and entire class of vehicles by such a fluke - that would make your position very suspect. Tell me which EVs that you have driven that give you the opinion that they are not practical? I often found my self in the vehicle of a friend, because they insisted that I should drive theirs so that they got to drive my EV. For me the EV is very practical. What comes to mind is claimed to be a Chinese saying: "The man saying it cannot be done should not stand in the way of the man doing it."

<<  <  Page 4/6  >  >>


Partner Zone
Latest Analysis
Using almost 200 light-emitting diodes in the front and back of the new 2014 CTS, Cadillac designers are showing how LEDs can change the character of a vehicle.
Carbon fiber composites are being used in a satellite fuel tank designed to burn up on re-entry.
One of the university-level research efforts to improve the composition of lithium-ion batteries through nanotechnology has gone commercial.
Yin-Mei Li of the University of Science and Technology of China developed a way to manipulate blood cells using lasers.
We looked at a number of sources to determine this year's greenest cars, from KBB to automotive trade magazines to environmental organizations. These 14 cars emerged as being great at either stretching fuel or reducing carbon footprint.
More:Blogs|News
Design News Webinar Series
5/22/2013 9:00 a.m. California / 12:00 p.m. New York / 5:00 p.m. London
5/15/2013 11:00 a.m. California / 2:00 p.m. New York / 7:00 p.m. London
5/29/2013 11:00 a.m. California / 2:00 p.m. New York / 7:00 p.m. London
5/30/2013 11:00 a.m. California / 2:00 p.m. New York / 7:00 p.m. London
Blogs from Our Sponsors
From Dell / Intel®
New Paradigms in Design Work
Scott Hamilton, vertical market strategist for Dell Precision workstations, 5/2/2013    3
Early in my career, I worked as a draftsman and remember the days of drawing on vellum with numbered pencils and Mylar with plastic lead. This was a fun experience in the sense that I ...
From Dell / Intel®
Increased Workstation Performance Is as Easy as 'DPPO'
Trey Morton, Dell, 4/25/2013    2
I've been using workstations for more than 10 years and love finding ways to get more performance from my system. With demanding professional applications that require more power each ...
From Dell / Intel®
Taking Some of the Grit out of Manufacturing
Kirsten Billhardt, Manufacturing Industry Marketing Strategist, Dell, 3/26/2013    5
A lasting memory from my first job as an engineer in an auto assembly plant is standing on hard concrete at six in the morning, vending-machine coffee clutched in hand, listening to ...
Quick Poll
The Continuing Education Center offers engineers an entirely new way to get the education they need to formulate next-generation solutions.
May 20 - 24, Automation Technologies & Trends for Smarter Homes & Buildings
SEMESTERS: 1  |  2  |  3


DN Radio
Sponsored by
NEXT UPCOMING BROADCAST
A quick look into the merger of two powerhouse 3D printing OEMs and the new leader in rapid prototyping solutions, Stratasys. The industrial revolution is now led by 3D printing and engineers are given the opportunity to fully maximize their design capabilities, reduce their time-to-market and functionally test prototypes cheaper, faster and easier. Bruce Bradshaw, Director of Marketing in North America, will explore the large product offering and variety of materials that will help CAD designers articulate their product design with actual, physical prototypes. This broadcast will dive deep into technical information including application specific stories from real world customers and their experiences with 3D printing. 3D Printing is
Twitter Feed
Design News Twitter Feed
Like Us on Facebook

Sponsored Content

Technology Marketplace

Datasheets.com Parts Search

185 million searchable parts
(please enter a part number or hit search to begin)
Copyright © 2013 UBM Canon, A UBM company, All rights reserved. Privacy Policy | Terms of Service