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Hardware / Software Integration and boundary testing make it all come together - partitioning can be the challenge --- appreciate the commentary/discussion w/ Alex

Good review of general concepts ... especially appreciated anecdotes on experiences

Thank you Gary and Alex,

Many things are in hands of management, they always wanted the stuff be done yesterday. Sometime management prefer intentionally ship unfinished product to customer for some sort of feed back.

Great lecture

I especially agree with the fact that after all the simpiler work is done whats left are those intermintant errors

and these need to be found by using stress testing

Okay looking forward to picking up another past class

 

Re:  Turning on Real Hardware

The first item in the list should be to measure the key system voltages and currents.  Verifying the correct voltages can quickly solve some really odd behavior at first turn-on.  Knowing the correct currents can quickly alert you to a problem by just glancing at your lab power supply.

Iron

it was still just as good :-)

Iron

I listened to it after hours too.

Iron

Thanks Gary. It is a superb lecture, though I could listen to the achived one after 6 hrs

Iron

another fine presentation Gary.

Iron

@clia: The Hackware technique is something I developed - I have not seen it written up anywhere. (I haven't been looking for it though.) Maybe I ought to write a book, "Hackware for Dummies." :-) In the absence of such sources, send me an email (my email is on the first slide) with questions, comments, etc., and we can talk more about it.

Iron

Wow, that is horrible.  And, sorry to say, but an excellent poster child example for sufficient pre-release, in-house testing.  Thanks, Gary, for another great presentation.  And, thank you for answering the question about the books yesterday.  In the absence of books, is there another source that you would reccomend for learning more about hackware?

Iron

@clia: I'm fuzzy on the details. Maybe it was supposed to alert the staff but didn't. Maybe it was more than just a monitor. But the end result was that a patient died needlessly because it hadn't been tested on older people.

Iron

Excellent point, Alex, with the printers being tested more than the machines sending the work to the printer!

Iron

In my experience, the smaller the company, the more hats each individual has to wear.  Not that the same does not happen at larger companies, but it seems more the norm for smaller ones.

Iron

The heart monitor ended up killing someone?!?!???

Iron

Thank you Gary, Alex and all. See you later.

Iron

@GStringham - Thanks Gary.

Iron

Thanks Gary, San Jose sounds good, but I'm stuck up here in Edmonton AB. I'll have to find out about it later.

Iron

If any of you want to contact me with further questions, my email address is on the first slide of the presentation.

Iron

@GStringham – Concerning H/W vs S/W, I once did a H/W design of a capacitive keyboard many years ago.  Capacitive keyboards were a bit novel at the time.  The board worked fine after I fully tested it with my own test firmware.  I handed it over to the S/W group and it worked fine for them.  After the S/W folks were done with it, it was handed over to the folks that do the exhaustive testing before final release.  It was about this time I had submitted my resignation because I had accepted a job offer at another company.  During my 2-week notice time, I was presented with a problem with my design.  The keyboard didn't work reliably when more than key was pressed at one time.  It wasn't written into the requirements, so the capability wasn't designed in.  Neither the S/W folks nor I tested this because nobody knew until the H/W was done and the drivers were written.  I never had an opportunity to complete the correction of the flaw before I was gone.  :.(

Iron

@danlafleur: I've seen some impressive virtual prototype demonstrations at trade shows. The Design West show in San Jose next week that Alex mentioned will have many such demos. They can make, for example, a virtual cell phone which you can manipulate with the mouse that gives a very good hands-on feel to the product.

Iron

@MazianLab: Yes prototypes are expensive. Exactly what there is or not depends on what you are dealing with. Can the prototype be cheaper if you add three weeks to the schedule and have it buildt overseas? Can you make emulator hw that looks like the real thing to the CPU?

Iron

See you all tomorrow.

Iron

I am sure it is full of good information as always.

 

Iron

I will have to listen to the today's presentation as I had to walk out for a few minutes.

 

Iron

Thank you Alex and Gary..

 

Iron

@luizcosta: I'm not sure what you're after but HP does not provide APIs within the printer for general use. They do approved a few third-party developers to make their own add-ons.

Iron

@Alex - I can see now that some of my postings don't show up at all.  I saw this symptom a time or two on an earlier day.  As I write this, I don't know if it will show up or not.  Most do show up.

Iron

@Ann R. Thryft: What types of simulations work better? That could be a class for itself. It depends on the situation. What components are complete vs partially done? What simulation models are available? How much time/money is in the budget? What is the object of the testing? Hw or sw?

Iron

@GStringham – Thanks Gary.  All I'm referring to is getting a newly designed/built board, checking it out in baby steps (as you said today) and loading some self-design firmware to exercise the board.  Additionally, after checking out RAM, lights, switches, etc., go ahead and do some firmware and exercise all the I/O.  Of course this doesn't tell us anything about whether the H/W design can keep up with timing needs or other specifics of their development.  The only way to determine that is to hand it over to the S/W team.  There are still other H/W efforts to be made after the handover such as environmental testing and other H/W stress tests.

Iron

Thank you Gary and Alex!

See you all tomorrow.

Iron

@luizcosta: When I was there, HP used LynxOS from LinuxWorks as their OS in the LaserJet printers. LynxOS is very unix-like. But I think they are using something different now. I know that ThreadX is used in some InkJet printers (at least that's what the ThreadX company claims.)

Iron

@Ran: Ideally the sw team has only fully-debugged circuits to work with. But they would have to wait a while to get it. But by giving them something earlier, even though it is not perfect, they can at least do their job. It wasn't the sw engineers job to test the hw, sort of...  The hw team did what testing they normally do with simulations, etc., but you can't really thoroughly test the hw without having the full sw code running on it. So they wanted sw to run their normal stuff and tell hw if they saw any problems. It did create a difference of opinion.

Iron

@syakovac – Sorry 'bout that.

Iron

Hey Alex.  Looks like you've got things rolling already.

Iron

@Alex - There it goes again.  I didn't enter that a second time as you see here.

Iron

Once again Gary, Thank you!

Iron

@Ran -- Agreed.  I have one of those right now.

Iron

@Alex - I think there's a hiccup in your web page code.

Iron

gb123 - Did you ever get audio?

Iron

Hey Alex.  Looks like you've got things rolling already.

Iron

@Ds26: Does Big Bang turn-on work? Hum... If it's a mature product, it could because most of the components are already well-known. The new features might create problems. Or a replacment part that is assumed to be identical may cause problems. For new, first-generation products, Big Bang is iffy.

I would say quality in a small startup is probably lacking because they don't have the funds to staff a test team. But an organization of about 100 people, whether a division in a big company or whether that is the company, should have the resources to have dedicated quality engineers. I think a large part is the culture of the company. In the old days, HP was known for it's very high quality. HP engineers that left and started up their own companies tended to carry that quality culture with them. Other companies don't have the stringent quality culture.

Iron

@Alex - Why are my earlier postings getting re-posted?

Iron

@Syakovac – It's like Gary said: There's never time to do it right the first time, but there's always time to do it over again to fix it.  There always seems to be a manager somewhere who hasn't gotten this memo.

Iron

One day this week, I couldn't get audio.  I tried Refresh several times, but to no avail.  I then logged out and back in again and was good to go.  You might want to give that a try.

Iron

Gary, I developed my design skills at a time when simulation software didn't affordably exist. It was done on paper and then you built a prototype. The process was more intuitive and incremental. Has simulation software been able to maintain a "hands-on" feel for development?

Iron

Alex, again, I love the fact that you can jump on and listen to this from the beginning as soon as the live lecture is complete!

Iron

Hello everyone.  Running a bit late today.

Iron

@Syakovac – The H/W and S/W teams can usually get started independently for the sake of project timing.  As such, there is usually an opportunity to get the H/W built in alpha form and out in the lab.  Of course the earlier boards have to be debugged anyway.  If it has a uP or uC, then debug code has to be written to check it out.  That's the time to write the test code for ALL the upcoming H/W + interface I/O.  Many times the best time to write such code is when the Gerber files have been sent to the board house and you're waiting on the board to come back.  Not until you have a built board can you work on it anyway.

Iron

Gary, sometimes testing the prototype is very expensive. Is there any other sulotion other than software and hardware simulation to reduce the prototype test?

Iron

Gary: Does HP provide C/C+ API for writing Ethernet drivers? Has HP used XINU in their printers?

Iron

@Ran -- I found that to be impossible.  It is usually a perspective issue but it manifests as bugs.

Iron

What types of simulation work better, or what different benefits do they offer, for testing materials changes?

Blogger

Gary, I agree, when there is a bug, you can not say its a software bug or hard ware bug unless you debug and localize the problem.

Iron

Gary: Does HP proHas HP used XINU in their printers?vide C/C+ API for writing Ethernet drivers?

Iron

@GStringham – Concerning testing hardware and testing software, I've been a member of both development teams.  But, when doing the H/W, I never put the testing onto the S/W folks.  I created my own software/firmware that exercised/tested all my hardware.  The software folks always got a fully debugged circuit on which to do their development.

Iron

Yes, nice program, Gary and Alex.

Blogger

thank you Gary, good presesntation, thanks Alex

Iron

Thanks for another great session today, Gary!

Iron

Came on. That customers are always going cheap has been proven wrong. One latest example of great impact is Steve Jobs' Apple. 80% of the profit in the whole smart phone industry.

Iron

THanks, great session

Iron

@caa028 - no,  ...  one day before that day

Iron

usually cheap products last till the last day of the warranty period...

Iron

the different phylosophies about how to test and how much testing could be quit different between h/w and software (only applications) systems

Iron

@ danlafleur - you need to do it anyway because you need to pass the certification

Iron

@slk, best to put time into it before release when you can see the problem and fix it. very expensive once customers start telling you that it doesn't work right.

Iron

Great info, Gary. Thank you. All in all, I'm very thankful for flash memory!

Iron

Another great session!! Thanks

Iron

Thanks for another great session!

Gary, thank you for a very informative lecture.

Iron

Hi Gary, does Big Bang theory work better in ceratin cases than Step by step testing?

Also, does the quality of testing different in smaller companies than a larger company?

Iron

@ danlafleur - the only inconvenient think is that the tests are very long (days), but is no other way to do it.

Iron

Thank you for Today's lecture

Iron

@slk, yes working at -40 means pushhing to see where the limit is for everything, reliability, stability and failsafe operation. timing does change quite a bit too, so we use our temperature chamber a lot for testing new circuit designs.

Iron

@Gary, I agree that sometimes it's easier to tear it down and start over than trying to fix it.

Iron

Sometimes, during the using arithmatic or conditional codes, if you miss the set or reset the flags, cause lots of intermittent failures.

Iron

@ danlafleur -  for -40 deg C, I tested my sys at -50 and worked well. you need to chose the h/w components very carefully. also timing is the big problem from – 40 to +80 deg C.

Iron

-40C is -40F is really really cold.

Iron

@danlafleur - C or F ?

Iron

@slk -- Yes.  I would.... Sort of.  I used a lot of VPI to be able to use some models from Verilog VPI and glue that to SystemC and some custom models using native threads to run fast.  That was a lot of stuff to glue together.  Verilog has improved vastly and I think more could be done with native Verilog and DPI to create the same effect but not have to create my own multi-thread controls.

Iron

by the way, it has to work reliably and safely at -40.

Iron

-20??, try -40 that we design for in the north.

Iron

failing prototype connected to a live (still alive) patient... oops...

Iron

If you have no failures you can not adjust your Quality Control acceptable metrics according to failures being discovered.  

M.P.

Iron

failed prototype also keeps you from going down a deadend path that looked good for a while.

Iron

I get audio on my Mac, but not the PC, no matter what browser.

Blogger

Check if you are logged in - maybe this is a reason

check volume control... i forgot to unmute it once

Iron

One day this week, I couldn't get audio.  I tried Refresh several times, but to no avail.  I then logged out and back in again and was good to go.  You might want to give that a try.

Iron

I have no problem with audio. It works very well.

Iron

failed prototype is good only if it fails in the same way as would the real thing...

Iron

Chuck, you might try another browser. See below, Chrome works great.

Blogger

refresh in IE is F5 - should work.

Iron

I am getting audio in windows 7.

Iron

Audio works for me...

Iron

I'm not getting audio.

Blogger

yes.. i use google chrome, works everytime

Iron

gb123 - Did you ever get audio?

Iron

@ syakovac - and now, considering the new tools and technologies, would you do it "exactly" the same way ?

Iron

I put together a virtual prototype 9 years ago.  It worked well.

Iron

I do test and debug each unit of project is designed,  then move to next step. After all if there is any bug still avaiable, it should be communication bug and easier to debug.

Iron

One of the biggest issues is that something would go wrong, and no real information would come back, if you were lucky an error code, that ment nothing, with a description that ment nothing.....

Iron

@Gary, I do the breadboarding in the same way. build a logical section, test, fix and continue. Software/firmware works the same way for me. lots of experience finding a wire out of place.

Iron

sometimes due to time shortage, we have to do a big bang testing rather than baby step testing. 

Iron

Depending on your browser, there are a number of ways to refresh. IE is kind of goofy with its cache, so try F5, Refresh button, and also, highlight the URL and hit Enter. I've had to do each of these some days in order to get audio.

Iron

@danlafleur - been there :^)

Iron

@jl, sometimes I learn the hard way...

Iron

Good afternoon Gary, sorry I'm a little late today.

Iron

I've refreshed a few times, get audio then gone. Probably corporate blocking it.

Iron

@danlafleur - must of had a lot of bugs : ^ )

Iron

Good afternoon folks - running a little late today.

Iron

As per testing, when I think the system is ready, I get an operator (with the required basic knowledge) have then run through the operation and to see if the controls are intuitive and easy to follow and are following a basic visual management protocol.

Iron

Anybody else just loose audio?  And yes, I've tried refreshing my browser.

Iron

I've burnt out early eeprom PICs doing the debugging by software change/recompile/test again loop.

Iron

Hi Gary, Alex, and all.

Iron

Finally ready to roll!

Iron

We have audio and slides

yes, the audion is loud and clear

Iron

Has the audio started?

Iron

Getting the system running for the first time usually take a lot of testing/debugging and intuition.

Iron

I can not see or hear anything. The media must be getting blocked. I guess I will have to see the archived version when I get home.

Hi Alex and Gary! Hi all!!

Iron

Temp on East Coast 86 F = 30 C

Καλησπ?ρα σε ?λους

Iron

Looking forward to this.

Iron

and the fun begins again... these webinars are great....

Iron

Just scrolling through all the postings today, and I see Gary's already here.  Welcome back Gary.

Iron

We are entering REal World, right?

Hey Alex.  Looks like you've got things rolling already.

Iron

cwinn61: The streaming audio player will appear on this web page when the show starts at 2pm eastern today. Note however that some companies block live audio streams. If when the show starts you don't hear any audio, try refreshing your browser.

Blogger

good afternoon, everyone

Iron

Good morning Gary, Alex and all.

Iron

HI everyone. How does this work? Do I just wait for the presentation to begin?

 

Iron

Hi, everyone. Looking forward to the presentation, Gary.

Blogger

Good day everyone. looking forward to another great preseantation.

Iron

Please join our Digi-Key Continuing Education Center LinkedIn Group at http://linkd.in/yoNGeY

Blogger

Be sure to click 'Today's Slide Deck' under Special Educational Materials above right to download the PowerPoint for today's session.

Blogger

The streaming audio player will appear on this web page when the show starts at 2pm eastern today. Note however that some companies block live audio streams. If when the show starts you don't hear any audio, try refreshing your browser.

Blogger


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