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Ann R. Thryft
User Rank
Blogger
Re: get out of the way
Ann R. Thryft   3/21/2012 3:54:58 PM
NO RATINGS

It's possible Rob meant something different by regulation--Rob?--but I have to agree with Dave on this one. China has what is probably the most massive bureaucracy in history. From the social systems standpoint, I find it amazing that it works at all. Why? Because as bureaucracies become larger they become more complex for a given size than for the previous given size of the social system they oversee, and therefore require a higher density of bureaucrats to population (I notice that the link Dave gives demonstrates this principle with actual numbers over China's history). But with that increased complexity, as in any system, comes less efficiency. So the bureaucracy itself becomes harder top administer, it takes longer to communicate among its elements, it takes longer to get things done. That may be one main reason why so many political systems become dictatorships or oligarchies at some point, just to stay funcytiooning. In addition, China has massively more regulation to help that bureaucracy keep everyone in check.


Rob Spiegel
User Rank
Blogger
Re: get out of the way
Rob Spiegel   3/21/2012 3:49:06 PM
Good points, Dave. What I was talking about is the lack of restraints on manufacturing, particularly indigenous manufacturing. While there are environmental regulations on manufacturing, they are not enforced. There is also very little enforcement of IP regulations. Those two areas alone give China an advantage we can't match.

Dave Palmer
User Rank
Platinum
Re: get out of the way
Dave Palmer   3/21/2012 3:42:54 PM
NO RATINGS
@Rob: Actually, there is tremendously more bureaucracy and regulation in China than there is in Europe or North America.  In spite of the reforms of the past couple of decades, it's still a socialist country with a centrally planned economy.  China ranks far lower on the World Bank's ease of doing business index than the United States, Canada, Mexico, or any European country except Greece.  Companies don't move to China because of the ease of doing business; they move there because of low wages.

Rob Spiegel
User Rank
Blogger
Re: get out of the way
Rob Spiegel   3/21/2012 3:22:50 PM
NO RATINGS
BillFZ1, I wasn't thinking in terms of government regulation so mush as government support for business. But you have a good point. Certainly China does not face nearly the same level of regulation as we see in North America and Europe. 

BillFZ1
User Rank
Gold
get out of the way
BillFZ1   3/21/2012 2:55:27 PM
NO RATINGS
Rob, I respectfully disagree. The playing field can be leveled, or at least close to by having the non-technical goverrnment politicians get the heck out of the way of american manufacturing. I live in California where the effect of too much government is obvious. People and manufacturing simply move away. The federal government needs to get a clue from this. Interfere too much and ANY company will go off-shore. Monitor an industry but don't interfere and production will return. I have personally seen a repetitive job leave a manufacturer I was working at durring the 1970's. It went to Singapore. That same manufacturer brought the job back to the US to have a more responsive manufacturer and make less scrap! Now it is likely that the return would not happen because of stifling goverment regs.  Bill J 

Rob Spiegel
User Rank
Blogger
Re: playing field
Rob Spiegel   3/21/2012 2:27:06 PM
I agree, ChasChas, but keeping the playing field level when we're competing with countries that receive heavy assistance from their governments. There is now way a democratic system like our would ever be able to match the government involvement of non-democratic countries such as China. So the playing field in many ways will never be level.

ChasChas
User Rank
Gold
playing field
ChasChas   3/21/2012 10:32:35 AM
NO RATINGS
 

Patrick Dixon has it right. The government should protect our rights and property.  In so doing this, the present government needs be a better watchdog by keeping the politcal and financial playing fields more level. The rest should work itself out.

Mydesign
User Rank
Platinum
Open market
Mydesign   3/21/2012 3:41:26 AM
NO RATINGS
1 saves
Yes, we have to keep options the open. Free or open market is a good for all sort of business, especially in an economic slowdown time. This may help the companies to make use of maximum benefits and hence in turn a superior quality product at an affordable price.

jts4545
User Rank
Iron
Re: Predator / Prey
jts4545   3/21/2012 1:42:43 AM
NO RATINGS
Right now, the prime predator is China. Flooding the U.S. with inferior goods. Especially in machine tools. Features are often so inferior, they cannot be considered "agile manufacturing". Deliberate attempt to cripple U.S. industry at all levels. From home workshop to the biggest corporations. Management of U.S. companies dealing with China do not seem to see the inferiority of the Chinese tools or just don't care. Not useful to those in business or those at home trying keep things running. Some protection from bad Chinese products and underselling of U.S. business is in order.

Charles Murray
User Rank
Blogger
Re: Predator / Prey
Charles Murray   3/20/2012 7:42:19 PM
Alex: I believe our country gets long-term benefits from, as you've described it here, funding of research, science, technology, engineering and mathematics. I get worried, though, when our government officials start picking winners in private industry. As Jon Titus points out, their track record with Solyndra and Ener1 would suggest that they're not particularly well-qualified to be doing that.   

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