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Thank you Gary for session!

Some time testing become a "damage control" for developers when there is poor communication

I agree with Gary that collaboration is critical in development and test.

But what is best to do when you have to hold two roles by yourself?

voice play does not work today

Iron

I do both hardware and software deelopment -- including firmware. Gary made some excellent points about the value of cooperation between developers.

Iron

well it easy to debug when your in a network. for me I use to do for debugging certain kind of problem on my network I just do the basics specially when the  problem is on my printer.. like on my hp 640 fax inkprinter machine,

Slide 14: Shouldn't "Microsoft Virtual Studio.NET" be "Microsoft Visual Studio.NET"?

 

Iron

I'm really late in getting to this course, but can now really relate to the leaking dishwasher example.  Last week we fixed the leak in my son's dishwasher.  First replaced two inexpensive  parts recommended by the manufacturer to no avail.  Made a very good diagnoses of the likely component, only to prove in testing it was not the cause.  More thinking led us to the actual problem which was simply cleaning the steam vent.

Good first day discussion.

Iron

will these posts get extra points

Iron

having to catch up on archieved sessions

Iron

My take on the quote in this lecture

Quality is softwares fault because its too late to fix

it in firmware or hardware

I agree with much of what your ssaying

This has been a very enjoyable and practical 

discussion.

Wow I got behind,

But likely I can listen to the archived ones

had to listen to it on tuesday but was still good.

Iron

the power point slide is empty

 

Iron

Yesterday I missed the first track. However I could go through the archive. It was really great and excellent

Iron

Missed it. I'll catch wednesday's.

 

Iron

@JoeWojcicki: You asked if Testing & Debugging = Troubleshooting. The way I use the terms, Debugging and Troubleshooting are the same, both are trying to figure out what is wrong. Testing is to make sure things work right, and if they don't, then we move into Debugging/Troubleshooting mode.

 

Iron

@Ran: Isn't the lack of institutional knowledge a form of "language barrier"? When they called for help with "multiple issues that need and have immediate resoultions," the HP engineers couldn't give them those solutions because the outsource team couldn't understand what was being told them. Given sufficient time, money, and effort on both side, yes, a lack of institutional knowledge can be resolved. And the same holds true with foreign language issues.

Iron

@GStringham - The lack of institutional knowledge doesn't lend itself well to excuses.  It can and should be resolved.  Language, on the other hand, has no solutions beyond what you have mentioned.  When dealing with multiple issues that need and have immediate resolutions to be given over the phone, failed communication can make a simple problem seem almost insurmountable.

Iron

@Ran: Language is just one of many factors that needs to be considered and budgeted for when planning a new product. I talked about the failed outsourcing experiment - that was to a company in the States so language was not a problem. But the lack of institutional knowledge, which was not fully understood beforehand, was the cause of that failure.

Iron

See you all tomorrow. Thanks for attending.

Blogger

@THasham: HP has had to adjust their quality of the LaserJet because of market forces. Printer prices would go down. Someone else would sell a cheap printer that mostly works and could sell it because people were willing to buy it, even though the quality was inferior. It was hard, but we had to change our thinking, "It's not perfect but is it good enough?" So using plastic parts and cheaper materials lead to a different problem - we would wear out a printer before we could finish the entire test suite of tens of thousands of pages. 

Iron

GStringham - It was amazing how much energy was spend on trying to prove out testing methods were not correct instead of focusing on the product.

Iron

Thank you Gary and Alex.

see you all tomorrow .

Iron

@GStringham - I take from what you say that there is no magic bullet.  The langauge problem can be a schedule killer and a budget killer.

 

:.(

Iron

@Ran: One time I went over to Japan to work with the Canon engineers. It made for a great face-to-face visit. But I was also over to work on problems. We used a lot of diagrams on white boards, hand waving, saying key words, and having someone else nearby to do some rudimentary translations. We made progress because we were in the same room, could see each other's faces, and could draw and point. That is hard to do over a phone call. Troubleshooting over email took days. Face-to-face was better but I had to fly to Japan (which was a fun experience for me.)

Iron

time to earn my keep. see all tomorrow.

Iron

That's good, guys! I will have to go. So long.

Iron

 The only time it crossed my mind to replace my 10 yers old B/W Brother's laserjet was these past few months, because of my willingness to print from my iPhone/iPad via the wireless radio. I still resist to move.

Iron

That's a good point, Gary. x

Iron

@Tony: I saw this quote somewhere. "There's never enough time to do it right - but there's always enough time to do it again."

Iron

THasham, I'm willing to buy a "throw away" laser printer every couple of years instead of spending even more money on ink. The last printer I bought was a colour samsug for $200 with the wifi option.

The samsung is still working well.

Iron

@luizcosta: The government has different goals than the consumer electronics market. They want their jet fighters and submarines to still work 20 years later. So they "overkill" on the procurement process to make sure those parts will still be around then. Apple does not want their iPads to last 20 years. If Apple used the same lengthy, drawn-out process to procure parts, today's iPads would only have black and white, 400x300 LCD screens.

Iron

ing experience in engineering at the system integration test level for a major corporation, I tend to agree with what was presented within your first day of lecturing. Having access to the old test plan and using it as a template for the next version of the same product line really helps out. Also many contacts with the others one the team keeps you in focus on where the result is headed. For management the big question was how many bugs did we find where the product did not perform as intended to. The list in Bugzilla grows as the team bonds tighter together and greater time is spent in fixing as many as possible before the drop dead date arrives.

Iron

I have been using HP laserjet 4 without problem to date and my coworker had already been through later model and had to replace them every two or three years lately... They are becomming cheap and useless. No offense to anyone though.

Iron

@GStringham - Thanks for the comeback.  Using translators sounds like a good idea, but during troubleshooting efforts, that solution sounds like it can draw out the project to be quite lengthy.  Any other suggestions?

Iron

Gary, I agree that a printer that doesn't die is a good thing ... for me.

Iron

@Alex- Outstanding!  Thank you.

Iron

I've had a few experiences with technical translations in the past few years, Yes, I agree that slang and jargon gets us into trouble. I also discovered that technical language is an issue. terms are not literal translations and need someone with the right background to translate into something meaningful.

Iron

That squeeky but functional 4L reminded me of a problem HP discussed a few years ago. Nobody was buying new LaserJets because the old ones were still working. :-) That was a good problem to have.

Iron

clia- the archives will be available forever; YMMV

Blogger

@Alex- Someone asked this earlier: How long will the archived lectures be available?

Iron

@rharrisdk..they can be found here http://www.designnews.com/lecture-calendar.asp

 

Iron

Language is definitely a hurdle to deal with. We at HP worked with Canon in Japan. English was the language we used. But many Japaneze engineers knew very little English. So they hired technical translators to translate documents and emails. The translators were often native Japanese, so, though they had good English, it was not perfect. But we on the US side learned how to read and write "Japanese-English." We could not use slang or coloquial terms. We had to make sure our English was simple and clear. And we were successfull.

Iron

archives are here; old shows at top, new ones at bottom: http://www.designnews.com/lecture-calendar.asp

Blogger

See you tomorrow. :-)

Iron

Gary, thanks for a good hour here!

Iron

Will the archives be easy to find?

Iron

sorry..not view..just listen. and read the live chat seesions as well as able to download the slide decks..Great

 

 

Iron

Yeah postmortem gets high priority.

Iron

@rharrisdk- Yes, you can usually listen to them from the beginning right after the live lecture ends

Iron

@rharrisdlk..they are available to view again as archive.

Iron

Gary, reminds me when I was Mgr of a Test group. Tried to have my team work with design to develop test strategies and plans for product ahead of time. Design groups always said they didn't have time. Once the product failed in test, they had plenty of time to figure out what went wrong.

Iron

@Ds26 - Can you elaborate.  I don't think I understand.

Iron

Thank you Gary for the session!

-Abhi T

Will these lectures be available online after they are given live?

Iron

Thanks for the Great session!

 

Iron

Gary: Very important slice of any technology develpment. I have found a lot of information written about this topic around the procurement process used by the Pentagon and other government agencies, since the 80s. There has been a lot of resistance to adopt the formal methodologies. It seems everywhere you promose them, people tend to consider a "overkill." I personally don't think so, because only then, companie can seize product longevity. Can you comment on that?

Iron

I am aware that there are USB to serial and USB to parallel devices out there. At HP we would use a network to 16-serial port box to access 16 printers under test. We would remote log in through the network box and we have console access to the printers.

Iron

@MizianLab,..we had the same issue a couple of years back. But nowaday you can easily get USB to serial or parrall adapter on the market easily and if they are configure right they can be used in place of hardware serial or parallel port

 

Iron

Thanks for a great session

thanks gary

nice lecture

Iron

With regards to using technology such as video conferencing for face-to-face, yes, that can be done, but it is hard to follow nuances, inflections, and watch others in the "room." But video is better than none.

Iron

Ran - a suggestion that we used in a previous company I worked with was to provide accent recent classes for a week when they join the project to help better communication, as they understand the US culture better

Iron

Gary, I still have an old HP4L that I bought back in '93. It squeeks with all the plastic parts, blinks the house lights when printing but is still working 20 years later!

Iron

Thanks, Gary - great session today.

Iron

GStringham - As you know, many times a remote team may be in a foreign country.  As such, there may be a language barrier.  Communication is critical on projects but can be nearly impossible in such scenarios.

Do you have any suggestions in how to overcome such problems which can ruin project plans?

Iron

Pre and post product developement times were not mentioned and are critical to compliment this material. Understand the product design and launch goals.

Iron

Garry,

We are involved with lots of sophisticated Lab instruments which are equipped with parallel and serial ports. Now days to upgrade  new software for networking between older equipment, we have to replace older computers and use Laptops which don't have parallel or serial ports other than USB port. Do you have any idea to solve this problem?

Iron

Gary - Any opinion about using technology (e.g. video conferencing) vs. an actual face-to-face meeting?  Increasingly, we are being "encouraged" to leverage the technology instead of traveling to reduce overhead costs.  This includes both client and internal team meetings.  Personally, you can't beat a face to face over a cup of coffee.

Iron

Thanks to both of you, Gary and Alex.

Iron

Thanks Gary and Alex. See all tomorrow.

Iron

Thank you for the presentation Gary. It has been helpful for a beginning tester like me.

 

Iron

Thanks Gary.  Looking forward to the rest of the week!

Iron

Thank you, good presentation. See you tomorrow.

Iron

Gary, that's true about debugging code. I used to spend 1 day writting/typing code and the next two days finding mistakes.

Iron

biggest problem that I have found is: Both the engineer and the software programmer know what the end results...it is how you get there that causes problems

Thanks Gary. Some great info.

Iron

It is a good idea to have routines developed for testing hardware as part of the production code so they can be used to troubleshoot the final product during and post production.

Iron
Mr Stringham, thank you for your lecture
Iron

Hi Gary, thanks a lot for the presentation. Appreciate it.

 

 

Iron

Thanks Gary...it is very interesting and which you said are very pracital.

Iron

Thank you Gary and Alex.

Iron

what worked best for me was h/w, s/w, f/w and mech design, done almost in the same time and in house.   it was fast and efficient.   but before that, everybody knew what to do in big detail.   additional meetings for sync or on the fly small changes helped a lot.   but not everywhere can be done this way.   you really need to have a very good and complex team for that.

Iron

Thank you Gary! grate presentation.

Iron

Thank you for today's presentation.

Iron

Thanks for YOUR LOGIC in this lecture!

Gary, thank you for the lecture

Iron

I am reminded of Max's picture of the ATM with the 100's of feet of receipt paper printing out of it!

Iron

How long will the recorded files will be stored?

Iron

I have a reputation around here for finding bugs in hw and sw. I try all kinds of silly and random inputs and see what happens. Most things work well with "normal" inputs.

Iron

thanks Gary, good presentation

 

thanks for the overview

Iron

and also negative tests rather than just confirmation test

 

Iron

tests should also test outside of what is expected...that is where you find the most bugs

Sometimes it helps to explain the problem to someone who is not familiar with the problem area.  Explaining to some who is not knowledgeable helps clarify your own thoughts.

Iron

luizcosta,

Good point! We work on full requirements backward compatability to ensure that tests track back to the customers requirements. It satisfies the customer and makes test more comprehensive.

Iron

Thanks danlafleur...

 

Iron

parallel test with development has been sucessful in both hobby and professional work. the worst thing is to have a complete system built, then apply power and find all things wrong at once.

Iron

Slide 18 does not need debugging. It just literally follows the axiom: Tell 'em what you're going to tell them ... then tell them what you told them.

Iron

WHEN TO START TESTING? In my experience developing formal software development, I learned that the best time to start with test, is when writing the requirement specification, when the requirements for test design are defined. When the programmers join the project, all those requirements are part of their development kit.

Iron

When writing software I find it helps to put simulation into the program, especially when I don't have access to the actual equipment.  The simulation part is turned on by a setting in an ini file.  I then have fake data to test the rest of the program.

Iron

have you mention test plan or test matrix?

true... does parallel testing work well?

Iron

@JoeWojcicki- That is what was posted earlier.

Iron

documentation and test in parallel with development sounds good to me. If you can't build a test for it, you don't understand it.

Iron

When outsourcing, it often helps to use the services of a TPA (Third Party Administrator.)  Increases the cost, but provides an additional level of checks and balances with the outsourcer.

 

Iron

What is a LINK to this site / course in LinkedIn?

I find a requirements document done at the start really helps with development.

Iron

I have had great opportunities doing documentation. I write well and am a firm believer that it is of uttermost importance for the life cycle of a product.

Iron

Our company tends to do things in-house. I feel uncomfortable with product development done outside of the team. We don't get the intuitive feel as when it's done by us.

Iron

sorry I'm late...what slide?

@JoeWojcicki - This describes the situation pretty well: http://www.despair.com/incompetence.html (it's my favorite in despair's collection)

Iron

how the outsourcing worked for your companies ? (if they did that )

Iron

@caa028 - how you thing Tech Education as this one could help IT ethics?

Outsourcing also works against building in-house product knowledge. I find a lot of us walk around with "Tribal Knowledge".

Iron

For everyone that can and chooses to do that, there have to be at least a dozen that have no idea how.

Iron

@JoeWojcicki - I was talking about plain lack of skill (or will to improve) within a particular company...

Iron

Hello, Gary. Nice to e-meet you. I'm excited to have you as lecturer.

Iron

@caa028 - the smart ones, can "see" everithing you are doing if they want/need to

Iron

PIPA + ... ACTA will help them

@slk - doubt if they could (smart enough to) knowingly do that...

Iron

US not as, typo ,- sorry

@caa028 Seems that THEY want to have as stupid as they want, right?

@caa028 - after this statement,  ... maybe they will cut you completely ... :)

Iron

Gary will come onto this chat page after his presentation is over, so please get your questions ready. You can start typing them in now.

Blogger

@JoeWojcicki - it's a corporate thing... a bunch of idiots with no clue how to run a network...

Iron

Internet speeds?  EU has 100 Mega.  Road Runner claims 59, several manths ago google wanted 1 Giga.  What is now real in USA?

@tgraef- I don't know if this will help you with upgrading a player, but if you have another browser on the computer you can try that one too.

Iron

Guies I'm going to IT, too, am blocked from upgrading this player.  Later.  Teresa

Iron

K1, these shows are immediately available as an archive after they're over, so you can listen tonight from home.

Blogger
The network is really slow today... had to login from my phone to get the audio
Iron

Have a Laserjet on my desk Gary, great machine.

Iron

Guess I'll have to get my IT dept to unblock the sites as stated on the troubleshooting page.  Even the link to the Adobe Flash download page is blocked here!  This is getting ridiculous.

@Mr. E - Thanks.  I will.

Iron

I have the audio now and am listening to Gary.

Thank you, Raymond

Iron

Refresh this page and audio should start.

 

Iron

Yes - Loud and clear

Iron

@Ran: It's been on for several minutes. You may need to refresh or restart.

Iron

It's now after 2PM here, and usually this forum is quite puntual.  I don't see the audio stream posting and I hear no audio stream.  Has the presentation started yet?

Iron

Hi, Alex.  Hi, Gary.

Iron

Hey, folks!  Good afternoon.

Iron

Welcome to the forum Gary.

Iron

Hello Alex.  Thanks to you, I didn't miss today's session.

Iron

Hello,

I am logged in, I hope.

I do not have voice.

Thanks,

Raymond

Iron

Hi from Monterrey, Mexico

Iron

Good morning all, ready for another great week.

Iron

Good Day everyone, Alex and Gary!! Hope to have another great presentation.

Iron

Hello from Snowy Tucson..

Iron

Yes, you are right, System-Level Testing & Debugging

 

 

Iron

Hello everyone. Welcome to the show.

Iron

Testing & Debugging = Trobleshooting, right?

Hello Alex!

Good to see you again.

Iron

Please join our Digi-Key Continuing Education Center LinkedIn Group at http://linkd.in/yoNGeY

Blogger

Be sure to click 'Today's Slide Deck' under Special Educational Materials above right to download the PowerPoint for today's session.

Blogger

The streaming audio player will appear on this web page when the show starts at 2pm eastern today. Note however that some companies block live audio streams. If when the show starts you don't hear any audio, try refreshing your browser.

Blogger


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