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Thanks Max, ALex and Digi-Key.

Iron

Nice work.. thanx alot for this

Iron

Thanks Great Lecture and presentation.

Iron

Thanks for your presentation!

Iron

just redundant explaination...repeating from what already discussed in the previous day class...

not impressive with the prepared presentation, boring!

anyway, thanks to digikey for another day class shared to us in the fullfillment of PDH Certificate with respect to the lecture as scheduled...

bye and goodnight!

discussion is fairly good...but thanks to digi key

that means, references than reserching it throughout...

much better if ever presenting, there's corresponding definition/importance of each key stages or whatsoever rather than discussing through audio...at least you have something to read...

throughout presentations are the same and that fell boring...presentation, not only the key stages, but also the importance of it that can be read...

i am now on slide 2 presentation...

i just downloaded of the slides presentation for this lesson...

good evening again sir max!

i am here again for day 5 class session...

Good presentation!  This particular presentation at least touched upon a lot of the important considerations for design.

In general this class could have been made better by reducing some of the overlap and repetition, expanding the slides for self documenting presentation, and perhaps gaining enough time to add another 22 or so slides either in one session or across sessions where a 'typical or hypothetical' Industrial Control application was walked through, from sensors to actuators to processors to software to standards and etc.  Many don't seem familiar with 'ladder logic' I believe there are many other concepts which could have been touched on and integrated to make a good course even better.

Same comments on slides -- replace verbage with text, expanding the summary slides into individual slides wit h the bullet becoming the title and adding your verbage as sub-bullets.

see you in two weeks.

Iron

good presentation Max.

Iron

Good afternoon folks!

 

Iron

Good series!  Thanks.

Iron

Just picking up the class lecture I missed

 

Thanks Max.  Well done.

See you in two weeks

Iron

I'm looking forward to the advanced class

Iron

Thank you Max for this week!

 

Iron

No worries.  Didn't want you to be left hanging.

Iron

clla, yes I did.  I was expecting to go to a website to download the list but it appears that clicking on the link automatically downloads th file.  Thanks.

Iron

@cnorton- Did you have any luck with the link that jjrochow posted?

Iron

I've got to run too.  See everybody in two Mondays.

Iron

@cnorton- yeah, that was it; I just copied it from your post and tried it with no problems.  You could try using a different browser...

Iron

Thank you Max for an interesting session. I look forward to the next one.

Iron

Sorry to post that one just as you were signing off; I can ask it at the next session.

Iron

I clicked on the link you provied and nothing happened.  I copied and pasted http://bit.ly/AlbpKq into my brouser and again no luck.  is http://bit.ly/AlbpKq correct or is there another way to get there?

Iron

@Max- I was curious if there was anyone who goes back and checks the comments on the archived webpages.  I notice that you can still make comments on them when you go through the lecture.  Should we pose questions there, or is there a generic email that we should be using?

Iron

OK Sorry chaps (and chappesses ... i.e. chaps of th efemale persuasion) ... I'm afraid I have to run -- but I look forward to seeing you for the next course ... I hope youall ghave a WONDERFUL weekend

I think I hear a cold beer calling my name .... "Max, Max, where are you?"

Don;t worry little one .... I'm coming....

Blogger

Lol! I have to check that one out then!

Iron

"62 million Englishmen who specialize in control theory!!!"

Be afraid ... be very afraid...

Blogger

@Max: PLCs are usually used as safety systems (in most cases) in a ICSS because of their great scan time. Have you heard otherwise?

"Yeah, I have fallen asleep to the tune of several operation manuals myself!"

That's one reason why I likes the "Process Control Case Histories" book -- the author starts off by saying "I first recognized technical writing can be boring when I fell asleep proofreading one of my own works..."  h egoes on to say that this is why he started to wroite in a more engaging and chatty style (he succeeds)

Blogger

62 million Englishmen who specialize in control theory!!! Man have you guys got a corner on the market!

Iron

:)  Re: Genetic Algorithms and including sub-topics of your own particular interest: The more esoteric stuff was appreciated, at least by me. Bye 'til next week-of-seminars.

only about 62 million at last count!

"There can't be that many of you, surely!"

Don't call me Shirley :-)

Blogger

There can't be that many of you, surely!

Yeah, I have fallen asleep to the tune of several operation manuals myself!

Iron

Someone said "Max, are you aware of Colin Walls over at Mentor Graphics, he's a fellow Brit."

LOL  No ... he's one I somehow missed :-)

Blogger

Someone said "Thanks Max.  Exceptional week of presentations... I especially appreciated the genetic algorithms part because it was completely new to me..."

Thanks fo rthe kind words -- I wanted to drop a bit of thsi sort of stuff in because I always try to create presentations and writ ethings that I woudl like to hear and see myself"

I love technology, but sad to relate mose technical writings and presentations bore my socks off :-(

Blogger

My background in Industrial Control systems was garnered during my years of employment in the Rail Industry as a Systems Integration Engineer. We have two failure modes to contend with.

The expressions A wrong-side failure, and a right-side failure are used to describe them..

Iron

Max, are you aware of Colin Walls over at Mentor Graphics, he's a fellow Brit.

Someone asked "SHOULD THE HUMAN INTERFACE BE MORE SOFTWARE OR HARDWARE CONTROLLED?"

One answer is that every system is different - -but if I understand the question correctly, I woudl say that software is best in thsi case because it's easyier to program complex if-then-else type scenarios -- and to modify them -- in software -- also that when it comes to communicating wit hhumans software is more than fast enough...

Blogger

Thanks Max.  Exceptional week of presentations... I especially appreciated the genetic algorithms part because it was completely new to me (although I don't think I understand it... it seems very complex... worthy of a whole week in and of itself).

Thanks again. I'll be back for the next week.

Mentor Graphics Neucleus is present in lots of real-time devices, including aircraft systems.

 

can real time os be run on 8bit mcu

Iron

Because before I read it I really didn;t understand much about RTOSs ... and after I'd read it I did :-)

 

This RTOS is very small and is ideal for embnedded systems with mimited amounts of menory - -also the previous version has ceen used in safety-critical aircraft systems...

Blogger

I know that the uC/OS III book is for embedded systems, but why that OS vs Nucleus, for example?

Max, why do you recommend the uC/OS III book?

Hello from cloudy Mayfield hts; home of Rockwell Automation.

I got in very late, and missed a significant portion of todays lecture.  I have to say that I really love the fact that you can immediately listen to the whole recording as soon as it finishes! Great set up that you have here!

Iron

Real time OS for embbedded sysyems

Iron

One of the books that I woudl really recommend is the "Process Control Case Histories" -- thsi is by a guy who designs and troubleshoots real-world control systems -- it's not a think book, but it is a really fun and instructive read...

Blogger

max we are interested

Iron

Max, thank you for the lecture and the reading list (PDF link works)

Iron

Max, why do you recommend the uC/OS III book?

SHOULD THE HUMAN INTERFACE BE MORE SOFTWARE OR HARDWARE CONTROLLED?

Max, Thank you

Great presentation, and lots of refrences, homework for next 10 days.

Thank you Alex.

Iron

Thank you for the list!

Iron

Is there real control systems that actually implement techniques such as genetic algorithms, neural nets?

Iron

Yes. I could open the link. Thanks Max!

The link works fine. Thanks.

Iron

The link to the reading worked for me - thanks

thanks Max -- link works great

Iron

The silly thing is that I just realized that I didn;t include any of th ebooks I've written -- but you can look for "Bebop to the Boolean Boogie" and "FPGAs: Instant Access" and "How Computers Do Math" on Amazon.com (assuming you are interested, of course :-)

Blogger

Your book link works.

Iron

Looking forward to attending the advaned class!

Iron

Max,
A couple of times you have mentioned an automated warehouse where "humans" aren't even aware of where items are stored within the warehouse.  I have heard of one such warehouse where they even turn out the lights in the warehouse since light is not required for the material handling equipment to store and retrieve items stored there.  In addition to saving a significant amount on the electric bill, it also serves to really keep the "humans" in the dark.

Iron

good bye you guys

Iron

have to go, great week Max and Alex. See all in a week from now.

Iron

Great "summary"  XXI Century Opened Pandora in Safety m? security. Example for engineers are Fukushima, BP on Gult. Explosions in mines and gas pipelines...

Thanks Max, some good points that can be applied to basic imbedded systems.

Iron

the session this week is quite informative

Iron

GREAT WEEK. THANKS FOR THE BACKGROUND. THANKS...

Here's a link to a PDF containing my list of books http://bit.ly/AlbpKq  Can you click on it and confirm that you can see it...

Blogger

Thank you Max and Alex.

Very informative presentation. Thanks again.

Iron

Thanks Max & and Alex

Iron

Thanks Max for your presentation today and this week.

Iron

Interfacing systems to common interface for HMI?

Iron

Thanks CMax, great presentation.

Iron

Thank you again, Max!

Iron

Excellent! Thank you.

Iron

Thanks for a great session Max!

Great finish to this track, Max.  Thanks!

 

Iron

@ danlafleur - all safety systems depends on how much physical resources are available to implement it, how important is the system itself (for the souroundings) and how much money you can invest in it

Iron

Neural networks - intelligent agents in software

Iron

Common interface for disparate systems

Iron

@slk, that's right. we anticipate what may happen based on experience and an FMEA. It's better than blindly accepting a a false condition.

Iron

Use of OPC - Object linking and embedding for process control Standard

Iron

What do the standards say about distributed systems?  Redundancy in those systems may be sort of inherent in the nature of the system but each device will probably not have a dedicated redundancy.  Are there exceptions in the standards for such systems?

Iron

@KevinJam: I am not sure if this answers your question. A basic process control system monitors/controls a process (continuos/batch). A safety system does not interfere unless there is a trip (emergency shut down, burner management system or fire and gas system, etc). control is shifted from a basic process control system to the safety instrumented system.

do TMR uses the same imputs to all units???

however there is also a cost to redundancy..so a compromise

Iron

Yes, it is defined in IEC 60601 in general,  but we have different safety classes.

Iron

@ danlafleur - you know that the sanity check is just a partial check or level of protection.   that doesn't cover all aspects, just what we want to check.

Iron

we try to put "sanity" checking in our systems. does the present result fit with what just happened?

Iron

Some medical standards - FDA/CDRH 510(k), IEC 62304, IEC 60601, ISO 14971

Iron

@MazianLab I think its defined in IEC 60601

Iron

I second...Max, What is the standard for Medical systems?

Iron
Iron

@ danlfleur - you arer right

Iron

Actually, first year failures often weed out "lemons" -- those vehicles (or systems) that make it through year 1 without failure may have significantly better reliability than the population as a whole (that is, including those that failed during the first year).

Iron

Safety considers sensor system, safety logic system, ans safety actuation system associated with Safety Instrumented Function (SIF)

Iron

slk, a less PC term is "idiot proof".

Iron

How does PFD (Probability of failure on demand) of the Basic Process Control System impact on the Risk reduction factor calculated for the independent Safety system.....and hence maintenance of the SIL (Safety integrity LeveL)?

Iron

not just h/w, s/w, communication, power, etc can fail.   human error is also "unavoidable" so this should also be taken in consideration all the time.

Iron

ASi Safe being another one

Iron

Testing, Verification and Validation of a complete control system (ICSS)?

Max, What is the standard for Medical systems?

Iron

Safety communication Protocols such as Profisafe addopted

Iron

Ah, but what about after implementation - testing, verification, and validation?

Iron

Well Yes and No. ICSS could have ifferent vendors for a control system and a safety system. signals have to be integrated.

Newer integrated safety systems tending to use same Communication Bus

Iron

A simple example of the second type of failure analysis is:  what happens when an MOV fails?  They usually fail shorted, so you better have a fuse.

Iron

SIS must be independent

Iron

Predictive maintenenace to minimize cost of repair / down time

Iron

@KevinJam: Here is a link that speaks about a safety instrumented system.

http://www.pacontrol.com/safetysystems.html

Programming for a basic control system and a safety system is very different(actually opposite).

system isolation doesn't work when we still have sneaker net.

Iron

Mechanisms for condition monitoring should be accommadated

Iron

All processes are always isolated from the business networks, However we've see virus created by Siemens to help with issues overseas

Iron

@KevinJam I was referring to the Common mode failures of the solid rockets

Iron

Breakin testing, factory testing

Iron

Need for security between different levels of hierarchy

Iron

Sounds like an opportunity to use an FMEA.

Iron

should run parallel to design of control system

Iron

Potential for high risk

Iron

@KevinJam as in Space Schuttle?

Iron

Independence of safety system

Iron

Avoid common-cause failure

Iron

that works until you get zombie robots ... MMMMCCCCUUUUSSSSS  RRAAAMMMM

Iron

You can counter a zombie apocalypse with a robotic uprising.

Iron

How does PFD (Probability of failure on demand) of the Basic Process Control System impact on the Risk reduction factor calculated for the independent Safety system.....and hence maintenance of the SIL (Safety integrity LeveL)?

Iron

Good afternoon Max.

 

Iron

Hi Alex -- sorry for the late arrival.

 

Iron

Hello folks -- running a little late today.

Iron

A safety system is usually a PLC designed to shutdown plants in emergency cases. A DCS controls/monitors continuous process. In case of shutdown, PLC(designed with configured as a safety system) is the master.

The entire slide pack for today is only 4 (unique) slides not counting the "cover" one...

Iron

Max, please discuss how complexity impacts safety

We just realized several drives with Safe Torque Off (STO).

 

Iron

@jl - we're here for an education and I accept your clarification !

Iron

Are there national standards to follow for safety?

Iron

Difference in importance objectives Basic process control system vs  Safety system

Iron

@miket - not sure of the region you are from, but being over six decades a Texas native -- Hello y'all is perfectly proper.

Iron

safety system responds to hard constraints, control system respond to soft limits...should be margin factor of safety between two?

Iron

@jl -- proper would be "hello all y'all" to address more than one !!

Iron

HP steam (1200psi) and nuke power processes are dependent on system controls.  Can be manually run, but difficult.

 

Iron

Max, would be very nice if whatever you want us to "visualize" is somehow present on your slides...

Iron

Read an interesting cascading failure discussion resulting from poor mfr QA.  Torpedo battery cook-off may have resulted in the loss of USS SCORPION, a US attack submarine.  Foil membrane failed under vibes much less than the normal encountered at sea.  Membrane failure caused a battery fire which cooked off the torpedo warhead only a few inches away in the body of the torpedo.  Caused low-order detonation which caused torpedo room flooding and a loss of depth control leading to the sub falling below crush-depth.

 

Iron

independent of Basic process control system

Iron

maybe, I shut down and restarted internet and all is well.

@JM - two browser windows open?

Iron

Hi everyone, i can't wait for the next series...

Iron

alex is double speaking...refresh doesn't help.  any thoughts?

Hello from cloudy Mayfield hts; home of Rockwell Automation.

Audio is loud and clear... looking forward for more fun with Max

Iron

are you going to discuss hazard analysis to develope architecture 

Hello from Tucson

 

Iron

It's good to have you back again, Max.

Iron

Be ready for your notes = info exchange

Dangerous vs safe failure, certification of instrument, actuators and logic control

Iron

TGIF - from overcast and stormy midwest

Iron

three more minutes for audio

Iron

yes, audio net yet

Iron

audio at 2pm eastern

Blogger

Hello everyone from rainy Seattle area

Iron

hello everyone. the last session!

Iron

No audio yet.  right?

Iron

hello all from sunny MIAMI

Safety in both software and hardware

Iron

Hey Alexander.  It's good to be back.

Iron

I'm hoping you will discuss Rockwell vs Allen Bradley (& others) safety products in relation to the widely accepted safety standards. Are these big players setting the standards? Or do the standards come from a wider community, historically speaking? Thank you, I canot be there for the slotted QA timeslot. 

Iron

I don't live for Friday, but it seems a better day than the rest. TGIF.

Iron

Happy Friday to you all -- TGIF!!!!

Blogger

Alex, I agree with Tony. I'm really looking forward to the next sessions. It's a great way to spend my lunch time.

Iron

Thanks very much, Tony.

Blogger

Wow, somethings just get better with age. I just read an article about how a version of Kermit was used on the ISS to solve a communication problem between two incompatible systems.

Iron

Hi Alex, you guys are doing a great job with these lecture series.  Enjoying them greatly.

Iron

Happy Friday Max, Alex and all.

Iron

Please join our Digi-Key Continuing Education Center LinkedIn Group at http://linkd.in/yoNGeY

Blogger

Be sure to click 'Today's Slide Deck' under Special Educational Materials above right to download the PowerPoint for today's session.

Blogger

The streaming audio player will appear on this web page when the show starts at 2pm eastern today. Note however that some companies block live audio streams. If when the show starts you don't hear any audio, try refreshing your browser.

Blogger


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