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I really liked the presentation. Thank you Sir Max.

Iron

good discussion sir max...

excellent! i am now preparing with day 3 prsentation...

thanks to all...bye...

great lecture sir max...interesting...

i am now on slide 18 of sir max discussion....

almost finishing...great sir max

i am now on slide 12 discussion of sir max...

i am now on slide 3 of the lesson...

i've just downloaded the presentation slides of day 2 class lesson...

good evening sir!

here i am again for day 2 class lesson of basic industrial control...

Great sesion, Thank you

FPGA plus ARM or PIC is flexibility and low cost. uCU as a compute brain control and FPGA is just traffic interface.

There are systems that tolerate chaotic behavior. Humans create quite a lot of chaos by starting jobs in the wrong order and using the wron materials -- for example. Then there are machine breakdowns, power loss and material problems. Systems that channel this chaotic behavior and return the system to a "known" state are the next generation.

Iron

How do you compare controller based automation to PC-based automation (using real-time operating system)

Iron

What is the main difference between PLC and PAC?

Iron

FPGA's are commonly developed in a coding language (e.g. Verilog / VHDL) which brings up it's own discipline and issues similar to embedded coding with 'C'.  Schematic level entry was done away with long ago it seems.  This makes LabView graphical programming seem more attractive.  Not to diminish the power and capability of FPGA's at all.

Open loop control sounds dangerous, though I understand the simple washing machine example.

Still, sensors are employed (as simple inputs) to determine "lid open", "water level" and such like.  We could also hypothesize the boundary condition failure mechanisms in terms of a stalled motor that burns out the drivers, 'a sock in the drain pump motor' and such like.  Perhaps it depends on the definition of "open loop" and what 'feedback' vs. 'input sensing' one is talking about ...

 

process feedback on slide 14: would fuzzy logic (simple thresholding) statement state machine be an implementation option ??   

Good presentation, I would prefer to see, rather than hear some of the additional information, for example:

* Slide with "machine process level" -- each topic (conditioning, HMI, Motor control ... safety and security etc) should have its own slide with sub-bullets (rather than verbal mention)

* slide 16 - more detailed (show on slide - input signal types, output types, feedback signals, and locations of process and control elements

* slide 17 -- bullet the spoken info in terms of types of linear systems
* slide 18 -- bullet sample non-linear problems / applications on slide

Looking forward to how this evolves in future presentations ...

Thanks, Max, another very good lecture.  You mention Linear and Non-Linear in your last two slides.  Do any control situations arise where the transfer function is non-monotonic?  It would seem to me that that would be a horrific interface....

Platinum

Thanks. Brings back some memories of working in chemical process control in the 70's.

At that time and that company, there was a mixture of relay logic, NorPak (Allen Bradley?), and Digital Equipment PDP-8 and PDP-11 controllers. I remember helping an engineer program in a language known as Boole, where ladder diagram segments were the printed output documentation (to help electricians troubleshoot the systems) for the boolean statements we were writing.

Iron

Another well done presentation.

Iron

Great presentation, Max!

Iron

@Max: Good one! But.....'We never use "student" systems, but just dive into the end item design and flog the employees till its done!' was typed by "Island_AI" and not me. Yeah, there can be confusions when many are responding at the same time. Anyway, looking forward to another great session tomorrow.

Bye everyone. e-C U tomorrow

Iron

OK -- I really have to run or I'll be late for my son's school =-- C U tomorrow

Blogger

@Ranjitha  "@Max: I think you meant to respond to Island_Al"

I was responding to him -- I was just suggesting that your company be in charge of the floggings:-)

Blogger

Cn someone tell me how to answer to a specific post?

Iron

@I don't even think Altera and Xilix are "makers" of FPGA.

Well -- they don;t own their own foundry -- but they are in charge of designing them -- I know a guy at Xilinx who hand-crafts the masks (well, portions of them) used to create the chips...

Blogger

@Max: I think you meant to respond to Island_Al

I don't even think Altera and Xilix are "makers" of FPGA.

 

Iron

@When I say die, we spent several thou on early Altera, 10 years ago or more, now it is scrap.

I'm sure they are very sorry -- but I will chastise them soundly the next time I talk to them - -maybe we can hand this over to Ranjitha who can be incharge of th eflogging party :-)

Blogger

There is also another article "Cover story: Balancing PLCs, PACs, IPCs " at  www.controleng.com just do a search for topic from yahoo or other  

Iron

@ The difficult problem is to figure out which technology will die.

The answer is all of them -- I think you mean "which will die sooner rather than later" :-)

Blogger

When I say die, we spent several thou on early Altera, 10 years ago or more, now it is scrap.

 

Gold

MAX: what makes an FPGA maker better than another? You may want to discourse about the best 3 players.

Iron

Fieldbus also belongs to family of industrial protocols. It has replaced conventional wiring(not completely).

OK -- I'm sorry to have to run -- but I'm expected at my son's high school to discuss his courses for next year -- I hope to see you all again tomorrow when we will cover really cool stuff like Genetic Algorithms :-)

Blogger

The difficult problem is to figure out which technology will die.

Gold

Do a net Search for  "Inside machines: PC vs PLC: Comparing control options" Very good article at www.controleng.com  website

Iron

@Ranjitha "We never use "student" systems, but just dive into the end item design and flog the employees till its done!"

I think I used to be one of those employees :-)

Blogger

If you plan on playing with FPGA development boards, you might also want to check out which books on Amazon support which boards...

Blogger

FPGA: Hardware or Software: Today, with Flash memory to store a matrix of logic flow (another way of referring to s software in memory) there is no difference between a software based systems and a digital electronic, for the program in memory is just another way of weaving the interconnection of more basic digital fabric, perhaps deisigned with even discrete gates. :o)

Iron

Personally I woudl say Industrial Ethernet ... there's also ControlNet and DeviceNet .... and Modbus, Profibus, EtherCAT...

Blogger

Thanks Max for your answers to my questions.  As of now, the thought is FPGA programming aspect to be software and once it is locked (assuming you decouple the on the fly reprogramming) as hardware. 

It gets more interesting when you look at a company like Impulse Accelerated Computing (ImpulseC.com) who have a C-to-RTL (think "C-to-FPGA") compiler - -their inpout is ANSI standard C (they have a library of fumctions they've created you can use also)

Blogger

What is the most popular standard communication protocol used in industrial controls? out of 50 protocols you mentioned?

 

 

Iron

Lattice FPGA Development Kit USD49 for everyone:

http://www.latticesemi.com/products/developmenthardware/developmentkits/xp2brevia2developmentkit.cfm

Iron

Thanks Max. Great refresher.

Iron

@JM When would you consider an FPGA to be hardware vs. software?

That's such a tricky one -- let's make sure we all understand how thsi usually goes. You start with RTL like Verilog or VHDL that describes a hardware function -- then you use synthesis to conver tthsi into a gate-level netlist that gets loaded into the FPGA. The thing is that you roriginal RTL can include the code that describes a soft processor core, which you can then us eto execure conventional programs... so you tell me ... where do we draw the line?

Blogger

Cheap FPGA developement board was posted by RMilewicz:

Digilent Basys™2 Spartan-3E FPGA Board USD49 for US students

http://www.digilentinc.com/Products/Detail.cfm?NavPath=2,400,790&Prod=BASYS2

This is a nice $50 to $80 board depending on whether you are student or teacher or just hobbyist

Iron

Thanks Max, good series

Iron

We never use "student" systems, but just dive into the end item design and flog the employees till its done!

 

Gold

Re the questions of wher eto get cheap FPGA development boards -- check out Altera and Lattice Semiconductor and Xilinx websites

Blogger

When would you consider an FPGA to be hardware vs. software?

BTY, i'll have a look at all of the helpful links and sources for FPGA development later today. Thanks.

Iron

Thanks for one more great lecture!

Iron

@Ranjintha "Would you be discussing Distributed Control systems (DCS) and their comparision with the PLCs?"

I'm sure I will :-)

Blogger

Thanks Max for another entertaining and worthwhile session today. See all tomorrow.

Iron

Digilent Basys™2 Spartan-3E FPGA Board USD49 for US students

http://www.digilentinc.com/Products/Detail.cfm?NavPath=2,400,790&Prod=BASYS2

Iron

@Jim "what is your thought on dual core FPGA for diverisity?"

The thing about an FPGA is that you can program multiple soft cores into it (literally thousands of 8-bit cores or 10s of 32-bit cores -- and then we have devices that contain one or two hard cores...

Blogger

@slk- the evals systems Ive seem appear to be very limited overall.

 

Gold

Thanks, everyone. Max will be on here in a sec.

Blogger

@Alexander Wolfe - You asked good questions.  Your questions are the same questions we here in the audience have.

Iron

Would you be discussing Distributed Control systems (DCS) and their comparision with the PLCs?

Thank you Max!

Excellent presentation

I wish you hadore time to atlk.

Iron

Thanks Clive, for the information

Iron

@slk- Altera seems to be a lot of bucks, micros or controllers are cheap.

 

Gold

@stev@HA - Micrium has undergone a stringent approval process to qualify their credentials.  Some applications that are safety critical or medically critical require these certifications, and Micrium is one of those RTOSs available.

Iron

@krhohio - NFPA = National Fire Protection Association

Iron

great idea about MCU. they seem to be the pocket version of the simple computers back then. OK, the ZX81 could fit into a pocket, but the old trash 80 is a lot bigger.

Iron

what is your thought on dual core FPGA for diverisity?

Yes You are right. ASICs are replaced with FPCA of late

Iron

@Ran: If you're an Apple, IBM, etc the quantity price (100K) of ASIC's is much less over the life of the product.

Iron

@ Island_Al - most of the time no

Iron

@luizcosta - Thanks.

Iron

dan, we _can_ go back: scrap the desktops and go program MCUs :-)

Iron

Do not FPGAs take much longer (and high cost) to develop in a one off application?

 

Gold

@snandu13 & danlafleur - the chipest fpga board I bought was 150$

Iron

 Scalability costs PAC vs PLC

Iron

s.schmiedl, you can't go back. I miss the time when we could understand every part of these simple machines. I did put together a forth interpreter/compiler under CPM on a TRS80 I, such a long time ago.

Iron

Earlier, someone asked why an expensive ASIC would be used when FPGAs are so much less expensive.  Did that question ever get answered?

IRON

This question was answered yesterday: DEPENDS ON THE SCALE OF PRODUCTION: ASICS FOR MILLIONS AND FPGA FOR THOUSANDS. THIS IS ONLY THE CURRENT SCENARIO. IN THE FUTURE IT MIGHT CHANGE DEPENDING ON MARKET FORCES.

Iron

Grey area differences PLC vs PACs

Iron

One one corner had a bunch of out of service robots meant initially to shuttle the parts around

@danlafleur: The one thing I regret from my teens is not buying the FORTH ROM for that thing... it would have rocked with the 16 kB RAM extension that I had :-)

Iron

Which is the company that gives 50 dollar FPGA dev Board?

Iron

older systems, typical 120VAC high power, as compared to 24VDC systems low power and interfacing costs with really put price rise to installations

Iron

And some factories are both at the same time.

I once visited the remmington arms factory in ilion NY

One section was older with dark alleys the other section was

bright with a bunch of programmable CNC machines

Max, this is a great way to introduce folks to control systems (industrial control in particular). A simple but generic way to put the students in perpective of the current real world context.

Iron

Earlier, someone asked why an expensive ASIC would be used when FPGAs are so much less expensive.  Did that question ever get answered?

Iron

Biggest issue is integration of pre 1980s technology to new systems

Iron

@danlafleur - avnet

Iron

great lecture, thanks...

ProfiSafe, ASisafe Siemens technology, or even Safety rated PLCs with passcoded locks

Iron

wow, someone else remembers a zx81! I still haver mine.

Iron

Thank you for today's lecture

Iron

Great session, thanks Max, Alex, and Frank

Iron

slk, thanks, available at digikey i think.

Iron

 Move to Integated safety systems with Basic process control system - Same communications backbone

Iron

Anyone in Northern California online?  Not Silicon Valley IT-specific...

 

Iron

@danlafleur - there are a lot for xilinx chips.

Iron

@Max: What would be the "Sinclair ZX81" of FPGAs in todays market? Affordable for hobbyist, not too complex, but still able to produce something really useful.

Iron

Doing this series as a former naval officer with test officer experience, with little formal systems engineering training.  B.S. History with minor in general engineering.  Looking to create robotic manufacturing in support of U.S. re-shoring movement.

Iron

I may count the number of times "FPGA" was mentioned in this session. A side effect is that I'm going to look for an inexpensive FPGA developer's kit.

Thanks Max.

Iron

Need for programming via HMIuser-interface to define various control function blocks. Requirement for Object linking

Iron

Thanks Max, excellent presentation

Iron

Thank you for a great session!

Thanks Max, good series

Iron

Great session today - thanks Max!

Iron

Thanks Max and Alex..

 

Iron

Max , Do you find that most of your work in controls today is MIMO or is there still a lot of work in SISO (classical) control systems?

Iron

thanks Max, good lecture

Iron

Thanks for listening everyone

Blogger

y = ax5 + bx4 cx3 dx2 ex1 f

amoung others

@kenstan -

From a hardware perspective, circuit components can be selected for considerations of temperature (high or low temps), humidity, shock, vibration, etc.  The design engineer will choose components for his/her design accordingly and test the design accordingly.  Any certification agencies will also test the design as needed.  Testing the design will be done with ovens, vibration tables and other such means.

Iron

"Computed torque" is an amazing control system.

 

Iron

Is anyone using GPGPU's for robotics?

Iron

I think that the "PIC" line of MCU is targeted for industrial control.

Iron

Open loop is a manual control system, the communication between the output and controller is disconnected.

are there specialised MCU or DSP for this industrial control?  that can withstand harsh environment

Iron

Design elements of a control system;

Define control objectives - operational objectives control system required to achieve; Ensure process stability, external disturbance suppression, optimizing plant economic performance.

Selecting measurements - variable measurements to monitor operational performance; primary variables for direct measurement and/or secondary variables upon which inference is derived

Select Manipulated variables / that which the controller must directly adjust to achieve process control

Select Control Configuration- Information structure used to connect available measurements to available manipulated variables. General configurations include Feedback control, Inferential control, feedforward control

Controller design: Control Law to be implemented by the controller is defined

Iron

As long as it still washes your clothes

@kenstan: cost effectiveness; open loop systems are cheap, if it is something that you don't really need a feedback system for

Iron

@clia - No problem.  I think everyone gets the idea.

Iron

Can you please  repeat the generic standard for industrial control systems?

Iron

@Ran: No, you had it right.  I posted after excusing myself, but it didn't make it up here

 

Iron

what is the importance of the open loop system?

Iron

feed forward/feed back control?

Iron

@clia - Thanks for that refinement.

Iron

National Electrical Code

Iron

I'm sorry, i meant NEC standards

Iron

National Fire Prevention Association

Iron

@krhohio - NFPA = National Fire Protection Association

Iron

Canbus: vehicle bus standard system

Cambus: standard bus vehicle system

Iron

What about NFPA standards?

Iron

Emergency Shutdown systems, Burner detection systems, Fire and Gas system are some examples of safety systems.

DSP appears great for upgrades to analog devices interfaces ??

robotic up rise, biggest bs ever.............

http://10rem.net/blog/2012/02/24/the-6502-processor-today has an "eye-shot" of the terminator

Iron

haha, and robocop ran on dos,,,

Iron

Sheldon: another android

Iron

terminator ran on a 6502, IIRC :-D

 

Iron

@ JM Ashcraft  It's available there: <a href="http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1589094867/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&tag=robotisequen-20&linkCode=as2&camp=1789&creative=390957&creativeASIN=1589094867">Embedded Design Using Programmable Gate Arrays</a><img src="http://www.assoc-amazon.com/e/ir?t=robotisequen-20&l=as2&o=1&a=1589094867" width="1" height="1" border="0" alt="" style="border:none !important; margin:0px !important;" />

Iron

Is Max talking about literal machine vision, or are we including the greater degree of sensitivity in sensors today?

Iron

@danlafleur: mechatronics, yes!

Iron

how it's made is a great show. i'm usually amazed at the engineering behind machines that make machines

Iron

For FPGA dev on Verilog, I'll say "Embedded Design Using Programmable Gate Arrays" Dennis Silage is a good lecture.

 

Iron

@ JM Ashcraft - for fpga go to xilinx or altera and chek their tutorials, etc

Iron

caa028, no, haven't seen the show, but will check it out. thanks.

Iron

@stev@HA - Micrium has undergone a stringent approval process to qualify their credentials.  Some applications that are safety critical or medically critical require these certifications, and Micrium is one of those RTOSs available.

Iron

@danlafleur - re stockpiles of stuff... seen "Doomsday preppers" on nat geo? (http://channel.nationalgeographic.com/channel/doomsday-preppers/)

Iron

What makes uCOSIII ideal for safety critical systems?

Iron

Max, do you have any recommendation for literiture on FPGA's

Hi.  Sorry, I am late; what slide are we on?

Iron

@ danlafleur: Ha Ha! Yeah, my fridge is overflowing, but that is real estate that I already own and cannot shrink down.  I was referring more to the large warehouse type of situation: if your stock can be shrunk, and therefore your rent/warehousing costs, I am for it.  But, neglecting that, I agree with you on the lack of reliability of delivery systems on occasion.

Iron

delivery system works, supply chain is dry for many parts used in the mechanical/hydraulics sector

Iron

FPGA allow fixed time computation, garanteed task delay.

 

Iron

clia, I tend to agree about stock piles of stuff... until the elivery system breaks down for any one of a number of reasons. my pantry is very well stocked.

Iron

or the price to have large stock piles of inventory

Iron

You have to question the wisdom in keeping large stock piles of inventory in todays market.

Iron

"Playlist Error!"  Reload did not work.

Iron

page number at bottom of slide is great improvement

Iron

It looks like we are going into more detail with it today, though.

 

Iron

I remember seeing this slide yesterday... daja vu ?

 

Iron

Audio wasn't working until I reloaded- glad the hint has been posted in the past.

Iron

Student version is, at any rate

 

Iron

I know Xilinx is limited to how many inputs you can model

 

Iron

dual core arm processors - cool!

Iron

FPGA are starting to be used in nuclear industry (safety systems)

Looking forward for more fun (was a great lecture yesterday)

Iron

Audio is loud and clear!

Iron

I listen to yesterday's session at lunch today...fantastic

Hi Max - looking forward to today's session.

Iron

mwalls321, for me not yet.

Iron

No audio yet on my end

 

Has the audio started?

Iron

Lets bring more NOTES to this Perfect Course!

Will we start precisely at 14:00 EST?

good morning everyone

Iron

Alex how can we have all sessions in MP3 format? These are great references, I like to have them.

Iron

Hello...After the emergence of NI type DAQs, Are people still using PLCs / PACs for new plants?

Iron

hello from an even sunnier Tucson

Iron

hello all from sunny miami

Alex - Curious as to how many people log into the sessions on a typical day?

Iron

Good morning all. Ready for another interesting and story filled session.

Iron

Please join our Digi-Key Continuing Education Center LinkedIn Group at http://linkd.in/yoNGeY

Blogger

Be sure to click 'Today's Slide Deck' under Special Educational Materials above right to download the PowerPoint for today's session.

Blogger

The streaming audio player will appear on this web page when the show starts at 2pm eastern today. Note however that some companies block live audio streams. If when the show starts you don't hear any audio, try refreshing your browser.

Blogger


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