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BillFZ1
User Rank
Gold
Re: another approach....
BillFZ1   7/3/2013 11:48:29 AM
NO RATINGS
William,  we are in total agreement on this subject. Also very important is the fact that the systems on start/stop vehicles and hybrids must not require special attention because this coould distract these same drivers. Pilots always say to keep you head outside the plane, or rather not to have your attention glued to instruments and forget to watch where you are going! Cheers,

Bill

William K.
User Rank
Platinum
Re: another approach....
William K.   7/2/2013 6:52:07 PM
NO RATINGS
I thought that I was reading the context correctly, but evidently not. But there are certain classes of drivers that do have more collisions than others, and it is not prejudiced to assert that those classes of drivers with the highest accident records should certainly be watched more closely. Likewise, there are certain classes of activities which will always tend to provide far more distractions than others. So rather than deny that some activities are more distracting than others we could see what can be done to protect everybody else from those being distracted. The fact is that  driving safely requires a lot of attention and that some people are simply not able to focus their attention enough to drive safely. The states have already decided that drunks are not able to pay attention enough to drive safely, and that they are unable to make correct judgements fast enough to drive safely, so that they should not be driving at all. The states have made a correct call on that decision. My point is that there are a lot of others who are just as unable to focus their attention even while totally sober. And they can be almost as dangerous.

BillFZ1
User Rank
Gold
Re: another approach....
BillFZ1   7/2/2013 1:21:21 PM
NO RATINGS
William,

Do you read in the context? I was saying that distracted driving has always been a problem. That is all I was mentioning with that example.

I am always mystified by the need to berate some portion of the auto driving public, like moms in suvs, because thay don't match your own ideas of how or what they SHOULD drive. We are trying to improve ALL the vehicles, not just the PC ones.

Bill

MYRONB
User Rank
Gold
Re: Is auto stop-start worth the trouble?
MYRONB   7/2/2013 2:21:14 AM
NO RATINGS
Leaving hybrid vehicles out of this discussion, it seems that we are adding complexity where it is not needed.  Many currently-available, fuel-injected I.C. powerplants already have CSO (Coasting Shut-Off functionality) that shuts off fuel during coasting  I'd like to see the analysis of cost of the auto stop-start feature, including material cost and maintenance-repair costs vs. actual fuel savings when engines are shut off at traffic lights, etc., as compared to just using the CSO function.  I really wonder if all that added "monkey motion" saves more than simply using the existing CSO function, but without the added maintenance/repair costs.  And oh yes, don't forget that one time when you're at a railroad track crossing and the auto-start doesn't.

If the auto stop-start is deemed necessary for reaching some CAFE number, then I submit we need to evauate to the whole life-cycle,material/energy cost before blindly following some arbitrary government mandate.  

Regards,

Myron Boyajian

William K.
User Rank
Platinum
Re: another approach....
William K.   7/1/2013 9:26:36 PM
NO RATINGS
If we had far fewer moms driving SUVs that would probasbly be a benefit for the entire country, possibly for the whole world.

The compressor does not draw more than about three amps, although it also consumes lots of horsepower. The AC compressor is directly driven. On the other side, the blower motor is a high power high current device, made as cheaply as possible. And they do draw more power than any other load except the starter motor.

And why do you drag out ancient examples of distractions to challenge the problems with the newer distractions, which cause far more accidents because of being so very common.

William K.
User Rank
Platinum
Re: another approach....
William K.   7/1/2013 9:26:35 PM
NO RATINGS
If we had far fewer moms driving SUVs that would probasbly be a benefit for the entire country, possibly for the whole world.

The compressor does not draw more than about three amps, although it also consumes lots of horsepower. The AC compressor is directly driven. On the other side, the blower motor is a high power high current device, made as cheaply as possible. And they do draw more power than any other load except the starter motor.

And why do you drag out ancient examples of distractions to challenge the problems with the newer distractions, which cause far more accidents because of being so very common.

BillFZ1
User Rank
Gold
Re: another approach....
BillFZ1   7/1/2013 9:16:52 PM
NO RATINGS
William,

The technology for Starterless turnover has been here for years. GM had working versions in the early eighties I believe. With direct injection becoming common it would be simple to inject into the cylinder in the power stroke and then fire the plug in that hole which starts the whole ball rolling. This would work best if an air assisted direct injection similar to the Orbital Technolgies system was used as a small amount of air can also be injected making a fireable mixture easy.

The thing about AC is that every system typically in use uses the engine to run the COMPRESSOR the blower motor isn't the biggest draw, but the compressor could be cycled off at stoplights for a short period without a major problem.

As to power steering, if you have ever driven a pre-power steering truck, the efforts can be very high. Same for non assisted clutches, but steering would be the biggest problem. There would be far fewer soccer moms driving SUVs if they had to turn them manually. As to the distraction issue, it has always been with us. In the distant past I have seen drivers theat thought it was OK to read the paper while driving! Texting is even worse, but unless we have severe penalties that won't change. The FAA handles the drinking issue well with pilots, get cought flying drunk and your done your license is REVOKED period, You can ask for reinstatement after at least a year but often don't get it. IF we removed drivers who texted it would be far less common.

Bill

William K.
User Rank
Platinum
Re: another approach....
William K.   7/1/2013 8:22:17 PM
NO RATINGS
BillFZ1, I would be interested in hearing more about exactly how the crankingless starting process could be made to work 100% of the time, and how it could possibly be made to satisfy the California EPA fanatics. On the other side, it would not take any more than a current level of battery to work very well restarting a car that is at operating temperature and in good condition. That requires a very short cranking period to restart, usually 2 to 4 seconds. 

The issue of air conditioning is what would probably kill any legislation requiring stop-start for all, since that 20 amp blower motor will draw down the battery a lot more than a 4 second cranking cycle. The only solution is to stop all blowers while the engine is not running.

That concern about power steering is not valid, after all, cars and trucks did not have power steering at all for many years, and then for a whole lot of years power assisted steering has been an option. The knowledge exists to have a steering/suspension geometry that requires only a bit more effort to use. And quite probably, if nobody had power steering, the number of accidents would decrease as drivers learned that steering took more effort than could be given when the same hand is holding a cell phone. And perhaps we could get rid oof those drivers who are simply not able to deliver the effort to drive a car safely. So non-assisted steering might be a real benefit to the vast majority of all society.

BillFZ1
User Rank
Gold
Re: another approach....
BillFZ1   3/12/2013 7:40:15 PM
NO RATINGS
With the advent of gasoline direct injection soon most cars will have the means to start without a starter motor. The only additional requirement will be some type of absolute encoder for crank position. You would need a direct injection device capable of operating at electric fuel pump pressures, but that should be possible using electronics. Most EFI cars are already computerized so I am not as worried about that. The system that injects fuel and starts the car would be much lighter than any electric motor/starter/alternator system. you couldn't do regenerative braking though. You could do regenerative braking using a compounding alternator. Turbo-compounding is another way to increase mileage that is already in use by some diesel trucks. That could be used along with the start stop technology. The energy to restart the engine would need to come from somewhere and the battery is the likely victim, but could be designed to handle it. The direct fuel injection method would also be easier on the battery using the energy in the fuel to do the job. coasting also works, but everyone here needs to remember that the highest selling car in america is usually a TRUCK. this makes the need for continuous power steering and brakes a non-removeable item. I don't want to be too antagonistic here but the guy who "doesn't care if people can run their AC all the time" is being silly. the reason that modern cars DEFROST so fast is because the compressor runs and the reciever /dryer of the AC system is used to augment the simple air blown through the ducts. Before putting on your hair shirt you should think about 80 year olds stuck in traffic in Arizona. The system should be seamless or people SHOULDN'T accept it period. We already have way to much government involvement in the car business and don't need more. Soon the only people to have new cars will be government employees driving fleet vehicles because no one else will be able to afford them.

Bill

bob from maine
User Rank
Platinum
Another approach
bob from maine   3/12/2013 12:17:42 PM
NO RATINGS
First, auto and battery makers are actively researching using higher voltage batteries. Current draw on a 12V system is severely taxing the electrical systems of current cars; 24, 32 and 48V systems are being evaluated. Second, Mercedes seems (based on observation during a loaner day) to be using start-stop by injecting fuel into a cylinder past top-dead-center, then igniting the spark. No audible starter engagement was evident even with the hood open and the only noticable side-effect was a very slight shudder. Time delay was less than half a second from brake release to power-available. The system did not engage until the engine was fully warmed-up and if frequent starts/stops were necessary in traffic such that the engine cooled-down, the system would disengage. They may have another method but it was inaudible. As far as A/C goes, there shoudl be enough liquid left to evaporate to provide sufficient cooling for up to 5 minutes. I'd guess there must have been an auxilliary electric coolant pump because shutting off an engine after extended highway driving without coolant movement would be destructive. I was unable to notice a change in the cabin air outlet temp in traffic. There was sufficient vacuum available to hold the brakes indefinitely after the car was stopped, though there could have been a hydsraulic motor to assist. Because most new cars have multipoint fuel injection and computer controlled spark, a similar system for start/stop could be used without necessitating a separate starter.

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