I would ask folks to consider the proposition for the "cap and trade" means of dealing with some pollutants. In particular, consider how much money would be made by those handling this portion of the business deals. I submit that the brokerage would get more money than any could possily imagine, far more than Gates and his minions could ever earn. An inconceivable amount of wealth.
Now do you suppose that there are a few people around who would damage the very existance of everybody else for that much wealth? IS it possible that some would resort to lying to promote such a situation as would allow them to gain that much wealth?
MY point is that at least a few of those screaming the most loudly may have an ulterior motive that is much less noble than they would assert. So I am advising that all of us look at credentials and backgrounds of those who are demanding such drastic actions. Some of them may not be quite what they claim to be.
I agree completely, Wasaus1. Some significant changes have been made regarding the environment that has improved air and water quality. We don't have to settle the global warming question to see the value of cleaner air and water.
As for your eloquent comments on personal responsibility, we now view ourselves as part of a group of 350 million. Given the size of the group, there is plenty of opportunity to avoid personal responsibility. A couple hundred years ago when communities were smaller, you couldn't avoid personal responsibility -- the lapse would have a noticeable impact on your neighbors.
I agree with you Rob, climate change/global warming is very emotive, whether or not it exists, or is caused or exacerbated by human activity .....
It detracts from the real issue - We are custodians of this planet, stewards if you like, to care for it and hand it to the next generation - preferably in a better conditiuon than we received it. We are RESPONSIBLE for what we do ....
Personal responsibility is a concept that has been all but erradicated from daily life by legislation and court rulings that all seek to blame someone else and abdicate personal responsibility - I have news for everyone - Everyone IS personally responsible for all their actions regardless of situation, circumstances, external pressure, misunderstandings or any other influence ..... there is no excuse ...... We must take responsibility for our actions, for our environment, for our neighbourhood and strive to improve them, not for personal gain, or kudos, or to look good, but because we are responsible to to so.
In some ways, Myron, it doesn't even matter. We owe it to ourselves and our children to keep the environment as clean as possible. Likewise with the use of energy. We owe it to ourselves and our children to conserve energy.
Until eons of time have passed, it seems none of us can have a perspective to be able to discern a man-made phenomenon from a natural climatic cycle. I don't question that the human race and its industries have produced solid, liquid, and gaseous wastes. I do question that these wastes trump the effects of natural geologic cycles. For example, the Sahara Desert has had cycles (starting about 10,000BC) with arid conditions and times of moderate climate and lush vegetation with a return to the arid land mass we see today. The ancient people populating that area had nothing to do with these historic changes. In more historically recent times, we have had what has been called the "Little Ice Age," from about 1550 AD to 1850 AD. I don't believe anyone has established a positive link between mankind's activities and this phenomenon.
I have seen the same arguments over and over again in every forum. Each side presents only their half of the facts and ignore the rest. Each side thinks they are right because they only have half the biased facts. I hear volcano, solar flares, mini ice age. Is always the same.
Once and for all, hope somebody will put together a website to gather all the pro and con compare notes and see what the conclusion is. Each argument with each counter argument checked against accepted scientific findings. Weed out the speculative theories. Funny such an important subject, and nobody has done that yet. Even wikipedia only has a small incomplete argument on global warming.
Maybe people just like to argue without coming to any conclusion. Even if the conclusion is inconclusive, which it probably is, at least we know where we stand, and have a feel for the risk of climate change will be.
I don't buy for a second climate change is so difficult to understand only the experts know the answer. That kind of bogus don't pass the smell test. That was what they said about financial derivatives for years until the financial crash of 2008, and the concept of derivatives turns out to be so simple and so stupid anybody can see is a scam. Don't ever fall for only experts can understand argument. Question any article that even suggest that.
One would hope that there could be a middle ground between the two. But the zealots on both sides just seem to dig in their heels, demonize the 'non-believers' and then move even further away from a possible compromise.
Funny - now we've gone from politics to religion on this.
Yes - there is a group that leave all their problems up to God as if there is nothing they can do - and that's a misguided concept for sure.
HOWEVER, in this case we have another entire group who now see "Mother Nature" as their God which needs to be worshipped and feared. Beyond that, the same group views government as their "pastor" or "shepherd" who will guide them to a pure and sinless CO2 free life to be lived without the shame of excess or SUV. You'll find these folks with heads rotating in slightly hypnotic manner and hands extended in solemn worship before one of those large three bladed whirling crosses in the hallowed ground of green.
Yes it is amazing, Rob. My natural tendacy as an engineer is to get to that bottom line and find a solution (my wife hates it - she's only looking for sympathy not a solution). This subject is similar - proposed solutions portray as much hurt and fear as the problem.
I agree ChasChas, there are better posts. What's amazing though is the number of posts -- more than 265 now. While I know this is a controversial issue, and it's been used incessantly in the political realm, it's still surprising that it prompts such passion.
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