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Rob Spiegel
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Virtual trial and error
Rob Spiegel   1/26/2012 10:05:17 AM
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Interesting article, Beth. That's a nice way to increase possibilities in design -- to do it with computers instead of physical prototypes. While the process may not have saved design time in this case, I would imagine it would inevitably save time as this practice becomes part of the standard design process.

Beth Stackpole
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Re: Virtual trial and error
Beth Stackpole   1/26/2012 12:14:00 PM
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Good point, Rob. As CAD and CAE become more of an integrated process as opposed to siloed tools done by different groups within engineering, there are bound to be design efficiencies. The real benefit, here, though was upping the number of prototype designs explored without upping the number of physical prototypes having to be built. Time saver and money saver.

 

Rob Spiegel
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Re: Virtual trial and error
Rob Spiegel   1/26/2012 1:11:21 PM
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Another interesting thing about this car is its looks. Apparently the company really wanted its vehicle to stand out. It looks like it came from another era, heck, another planet. With so many recent American cars looking alike, the Donkervoort is refreshing.

Alexander Wolfe
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High value, low volume
Alexander Wolfe   1/26/2012 3:13:42 PM
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To me, this is almost a case of CAD meets kit car. This is a high performance, high cost, low volume automobile. Its design and manufacture would probably be economically unviable without the time/cost/knowledge/ leverage provided by an advanced CAD/CAE program, where you can in effect do virtual design, testing, and prototyping.

Beth Stackpole
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Re: Curved lines
Beth Stackpole   1/27/2012 8:52:38 AM
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Chuck, while we didn't talk specifically about surface modeling work done on the D8 GTO, you just have to look at it and see it's an obvious candidate for that kind of software. 

Rob, to address your points about looks. The whole design challenge with this car was to make it more "muscley" and higher performance, but also take weight out of the car even when adding some more safety functionality in the door frames. While achieving those goals, the team had to keep the car looking like its heritage which is definitely something that heralds from another time and place. Likely not a design for the masses, but for the wealthy driving enthusiasts that are the target audience.

Beth Stackpole
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Re: Curved lines
Beth Stackpole   1/27/2012 8:52:48 AM
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Chuck, while we didn't talk specifically about surface modeling work done on the D8 GTO, you just have to look at it and see it's an obvious candidate for that kind of software. 

Rob, to address your points about looks. The whole design challenge with this car was to make it more "muscley" and higher performance, but also take weight out of the car even when adding some more safety functionality in the door frames. While achieving those goals, the team had to keep the car looking like its heritage which is definitely something that heralds from another time and place. Likely not a design for the masses, but for the wealthy driving enthusiasts that are the target audience.

Architect
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Gold
Re: Curved lines
Architect   1/27/2012 9:16:49 AM
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So ghastly, so ugly, so devoid of anything virtuous..

Perfect proof that CAD, CAM, CAE doesn't solve anything.

Bill

Rob Spiegel
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Re: Curved lines
Rob Spiegel   1/27/2012 11:03:31 AM
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That's funny, Bill. I like its cartoonish look. Very over-the-top, a modern version of a 1940s roadster. Looks like it weights a ton, but apparently it doesn't.

Architect
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Gold
Re: Curved lines
Architect   1/27/2012 11:42:48 AM
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It is beyond funny Rob, It's hilariously distasteful.

It has been my experience that those who could afford such a thing actually have better taste than to entertain any notion of buying it.

Bill

Ozark Sage
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Silver
Re: Curved lines
Ozark Sage   1/28/2012 2:16:54 PM
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Architect  I raise my glass to both this and your preceeding comment.  I, personally, find use of Retro Design regressive, especially this one.  I have attached links to yester years Cords and Auburns in support of this my point.  Both car makers contributed to the Pure AND Tecnnical advancement of Automotive Design and Engineering advances.

http://www.google.com/images?q=cord+autos&rls=com.microsoft%3Aen-us&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&startIndex=&startPage=1&oi=image_result_group&sa=X

Architect
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Gold
Re: Curved lines
Architect   1/28/2012 4:28:20 PM
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Thanks Sage,

Fascinating that you mention my friend's work.

When I first met Gordon I had offered to do an art show of his designs and I asked him if it was OK to call it Automotive Architecture and he responded , "Yes, exactly!" and went on to tell me about being a young designer with Duesenberg and was out in San Francisco and saw a book in a window and he was fascinated by it and went in, looked at it and mentioned that it was absolutely inspiring. He commented that he designed the 20 Grand after that and he even wrote to the architect complimenting him and received a reply.  He confided in me that he thought that the architect was a marvelous writer but he went to see one of his buildings in France and thought that it was terrible.

I immediately told him that the book was "Vers un Architecture"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toward_an_Architecture

And he said YES that's it!

I told him that some people might disagree since he was considered to be one of the 3 greatest architects of the 20thC.

But we had a great show and a great time.

Several years ago I was invited by his Daughter and Grandson down to the ACD museum for the unveiling of the Gordon Buehrig Gallery and got to see the the letter that Frank Lloyd wright had sent with accolades to E.L.Cord. Batting 2 0ut of 3 gives him a .666 batting aveage.

Gordon went on to talk about the 20 grand which now resides in the Nethercutt museum in California.  Gordon mentioned to me that he used to love to go back into the paint shop and mix colors. He said that the 20G was the first car to have a darkened aluminum/silver paint job so I have strong suspicions that they have not correctly restored that vehicle.

Gordon was a joy to know, has a wonderful Daughter and Grandson in NY.

Bill

 

Architect
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Gold
Re: Curved lines
Architect   1/28/2012 4:46:00 PM
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Sage,

In a rush I missed your links which are great.

Gordon pointed out to me that when he designed the cover over the transmission in the front of the Cord that it was form following function.

I see that you have a picture of the Volt in there which I consider to be completely appropriate. In my article in altenergy.com you will see how much I like it.

http://www.altenergymag.com/emagazine/2011/06/the-esd-engineering-society-of-detroit-ride-and-drive-of-the-chevy-volt/1710

The Converj or now the ELR is on a par with the 20Grand. 

;D

Bill

Watashi
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Platinum
working smarter, not harder
Watashi   1/27/2012 9:56:13 AM
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The tightly integrated design team has a lot of advantages.  I'm sure saving on the number of prototypes saved money.

I'm more of a muscle car guy, but I'd try this open wheeler...when I win the lottery.

Tcrook
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Gold
Re: working smarter, not harder
Tcrook   1/27/2012 10:49:44 AM
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Always fun to analyze carmaker claims from the comfort of an armchair.  This one has many that raise one's eyebrows.   400 HP at  5400 rpm with no turbo from 2480cc  -  Really?   0 - 100 k/h in 3 seconds with RWD only?   Less than 1500 lbs?   Of course I don't read Dutch so I could have missed the magic ingredient.

But I love those numbers, it's what I'd love to drive.   Now, about those looks....

Ann R. Thryft
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Blogger
Carbon fiber really gets around
Ann R. Thryft   1/27/2012 11:54:07 AM
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Interesting that carbon fiber was used in the chassis. This wunderkind material is really getting around, whether in composites or on its own.


JimT@Future-Product-Innovations
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Platinum
Re: Carbon fiber really gets around
JimT@Future-Product-Innovations   1/30/2012 8:47:43 AM
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@Ann- ....not just carbon fiber, but specifically it said "hybrid carbon-fiber tubular-steel" which I don't clearly understand but would like to.  Do you know-? To me, Carbon-Fiber meant polymers while Tubular-Steel meant metal extrusions.  A quick Google check did not yield much clarity; I found only one reference from the Oil & Gas Journal (Petroleum Engineering) using the same term applied to drilling apparatus, but no real explanation as what the material actually is.  I'd like to know more.

Ann R. Thryft
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Re: Carbon fiber really gets around
Ann R. Thryft   1/30/2012 12:01:50 PM
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Jim, I assumed it meant a hybrid of carbon fiber and steel, but I'm not the author, nor do I read Dutch so I can't look for the manufacturer's specs. Beth, do you know what this means?


naperlou
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Re: Carbon fiber really gets around
naperlou   1/31/2012 9:52:21 PM
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Ann, this is just a guess, but I expect you are correct.  When I worked on spacecraft, the carbon fiber tubes were attached to metal components at the junctions.  The UARS satelite (the one that just fell to earth recently) was like that.

Ann R. Thryft
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Re: Carbon fiber really gets around
Ann R. Thryft   2/1/2012 12:08:43 PM
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naperlou, when I answered I was thinking of mil/erospace apps back in the mid-80s, which is when I first heard of the concept of a hybrid that combined plastic and metal in some way. I remember my first response being "Huh? How is that possible?" It sounded like science fiction at the time.


naperlou
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Re: Carbon fiber really gets around
naperlou   2/1/2012 12:45:23 PM
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The UARS satelite was designed and build in the 80's.  At what was then GE Aerospace, there was a lot of research going on.  The spacecraft plant actually made their own composites from raw materials.  So, to some extent to call it science fiction is not really far off.  It was pretty close.

Ann R. Thryft
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Re: Carbon fiber really gets around
Ann R. Thryft   2/1/2012 1:06:09 PM
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Even though I'd been reading science fiction since the early 60s at the time I first heard about composites/hybrids, I tended to avoid the hardware-oriented stuff. So if it was mentioned anywhere before the mid-80s, it had passed me by. Interesting to hear from someone who was there at the beginning.


BillFZ1
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Gold
Derivitive styling?
BillFZ1   1/27/2012 12:04:25 PM
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Have any of you guys and girls ever seen a Lotus Super 7? This car looks so much like one  Lotus should cry copyright infringement. This car is very much in the TOY catagory no matter how much design engineering went into it. For many older drivers the seat height alone would be a problem. I'm glad that they could use the tools to optimize it, but it will always be for a splinter market. I also get a kick out of the comment, "It cut the number of prototypes by 50%." Was that from two to one? If I want a performance car I'll by a Corvette. Good support and an excellent bang for the buck.

Style is a subjective thing, one persons cute is anothers ugly. I find the subject of this article to be too throwback for my taste. Cycle fenders, come on. The drag on this thing is going to be through the roof for such a small car.

Bill J

Watashi
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Platinum
Re: Derivitive styling?
Watashi   1/27/2012 12:36:40 PM
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Dodge might have a case with their Prowler, although it is currently out of production.

Alexander Wolfe
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Re: Derivitive styling?
Alexander Wolfe   1/27/2012 2:16:52 PM
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Afficionados of "The Prisoner" will recall that the lead character, Number 6, played by the late Patrick McGoohan, drove a Lotus 7, which had a tendency to overheat in traffic. There was also a great book, about a decade ago, written by a guy inspired by the show to build his own Lotus 7 from scratch. (I think it was available as a kit car.) The book seems to be OP (out of print) though; couldn't find it on Amazon.

 

 



fredsay
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Gold
Safety? For whom?
fredsay   1/27/2012 3:56:12 PM
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I found it humorous when the article talked about the vehicle size and the safety of the passengers. But with those huge open wheel front tires, I'd hate to be a pedestrian with that thing coming at me. Those tires would have an easy time pulling me under the wheels, even at very low speeds. IMO, open wheels like that should only be used on the track and never on the street.

And I thought the Pontiac Aztek was ugly, but this makes it look downright attractive. For some people, "taste" is all in their mouth.

naperlou
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Re: Safety? For whom?
naperlou   1/31/2012 9:49:20 PM
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Actually, this looks a lot like a Lotus 7.  If you are not familiar witht that car, it was (is?) a kit car.  They are lots of fun to drive and to build.  They certianly an acquired taste, thogh.

As for the safety aspect, the Lotus 7 was open with minimal doors.  This is much like pre-war (WWII) cars.  That is one of the reasons it was a kit car.  To pass safety tests that are now required would require much more structure. 

As for pedestrian safety, well...

 



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