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shrimper53
User Rank
Gold
Re: Redistribution of Energy Production
shrimper53   11/16/2012 10:44:28 AM
NO RATINGS
Amen, William!!...  I could not agree more with your general assessment.

LIke it or not, there is NO viable substitute (actually, what is generally advocated is really replacement) for fossil fuels and the ICE.  We should of course be focusing research on improving all technologies, but with a sense of logic and reason (not this emotional cry of "kiss BP and OPEC goodbye").   I just read another article on truly major and significant advances in engine design and operational technologies (variable valve timing, turbocharging, etc.), all of whcih contribute to the overall goal of greater efficiency; sadly these are not the kind of efforts that get sufficient attention, or garner big headliines.  It is really maddening how the entire subject has been corrupted by political and idealogical forces.

 

Skotty
User Rank
Silver
Volt MPG
Skotty   4/7/2012 10:04:08 AM
NO RATINGS
Where did the figure of 30 MPG on gas come from?  I own a Volt and from my real world experience, the gas-only MPG has been in a range from 35 to 40 MPG depending on my driving style.  I can't imagine how I would have to drive to drop that to 30 -- cruise on the highway at 90 MPH and always floor it on acceleration in town maybe?  And if you are going to make comparisons using that driving style, you can't turn around and compare it to best case for some other fuel efficient car.

sglobe
User Rank
Iron
Re: Redistribution of Energy Production
sglobe   3/10/2012 1:48:43 AM
NO RATINGS
actually i have read this one, "It could be recharged many, many times perhaps hundreds of thousands of times, and ... it could be recharged very quickly, just in a matter of seconds rather than a matter of hours," he says. maybe next time they will create the triumph parts and other car parts using solar cells. well that's good.

MIROX
User Rank
Platinum
Re: Redistribution of Energy Production
MIROX   2/21/2012 1:22:42 PM
NO RATINGS
OKA NEV ZEV is not only available today but has been available since 2003 in USA.  (I have one since 2005)

And for under $10,000 batteries included ! (Mine was $8,275)

www.okaauto.com

And for commuting short distances it makes sense, about 2 cents per mile to re-charge.

But the day you need a new battery pack (I did at 12,000 miles and 6 years) all the money you have saved even at $4.00 per gallon (today price) instantly evaporates.

I calculate the break even at about $6.00 per gallon that is if the power costs remains constant at about 10 cents per kw/h, but that too has strange way to creep up and so does the cost of lead-acid batteries which in 2003 were $90 each (8 are needed) and today are $225 each !!!

So if price of more than 50 year old technology of sealed Pb batteries more than doubled, why does anyone think the price of any current battery technolgy will ever go down much ? I never heard that there is world wide Pd shortage, so why the price increase ? I am told it is the increased demand for Pb batteries for all the new cars that are now made in China annually (not sure if that is really the cause ?)

Look at platinum an inexpensive metal in the 1960's that is now more than gold, since 63 million cars produced annually have catalytic converters on them.

Any spike in battery technology will instantly increase the cost of the required chemicals that are not overly abundant.

didymus7
User Rank
Platinum
Affordable?
didymus7   2/21/2012 10:35:11 AM
NO RATINGS
I just noticed this statement:  "When I heard about Brian's "Drive for Innovation" experiment, I found myself focusing not on the current Chevy Volt's limitations, but on the surprising speed of its development. When I first read about Volt prototypes less than two years ago, I understood that an operating, affordable consumer Volt was still far, far away."

As far as I'm concerned, $40,000 for a car in NOT affordable.  So an affordable electric car is still far, far away.

RNDDUDE
User Rank
Platinum
Re: Redistribution of Energy Production
RNDDUDE   2/21/2012 10:09:06 AM
NO RATINGS
Boy, if we could just harness all of the energy being expended by Jerry & Keven on this discussion, we could power a LOT of EV's!!!

wink
User Rank
Iron
Re: Redistribution of Energy Production
wink   2/17/2012 9:31:21 PM
NO RATINGS
i just found this article http://www.rsc.org/chemistryworld/News/2009/March/11030903.asp. i just wonder if buses will be also get green. http://techcrunch.com/2009/06/10/new-super-battery-to-charge-buses-and-street-cars-in-10-seconds/ and i think even the auto repair shops needs to be green.

Jerry dycus
User Rank
Gold
Re: Redistribution of Energy Production
Jerry dycus   2/11/2012 12:43:29 AM
NO RATINGS
 

  Math is math. You just don't understand part throttle eff do you. Look it up. Did you look at the EPA website?

  Note I said the EV-1 lead version, not the NiMh version which wasted much power charging from bad battery design.

Nor did I say producion EVs available are the solution as lightweight commuter. town car is best until battery prices drop.  I said my solution the GM UltraLite.

And not complicated with a $1200 battery pack in a 550lb before battery aero vehicle has 25% of the drag a steel car would.  Such a easy 100 mile range EV could be mass produced for $15k or less.  EV's have used this well for 100 yrs in forklift tech.

So you found my first EV from 16 yrs ago. Good for you. What you see is after it was rear ended at 25 mph and totaled the compact car hitting me.  It cost me only $40 to repair mine.  While it wasn't great looking, it worked well, the women loved it and  cost about 2 tanks of gas/yr to drive.  How much does your car cost to own?

I'll be selling FreedomEV's and some custom ones.  I have customers waiting as I finish, test them before I sell any.

The EPA cycle is not well set up to rate EV's and hybrids or gas, diesel either most experts agree.  My numbers show that.

That's it for me.  I'll remember you as I pass gas stations and you can thiink of me as you pour your money down your tank.

Kevin
User Rank
Platinum
Re: Redistribution of Energy Production
Kevin   2/10/2012 5:24:04 PM
NO RATINGS
Truly for the last time...'cause it's like shooting catfish in a bucket:

1.  Your efficiency math is hopelessly wrong.  I know you don't want to be confused by "facts" anyway, so we'll just leave it at that.  Maybe you have an engineer friend who can help...

2.  Here's a good article on relative operating costs of EV's vs. a Prius.  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nissan_Leaf#Battery

If you do the calculations, you'll see that the financial "break even" point for a LEAF vs. PRIUS (using the reasonable assumptions in the article) is over 170,000 miles.  For a VOLT (in EV mode) vs. a PRIUS, it's over 350,000 miles! 

3.  The Watt-Hour/mile usage will, of course vary by speed and accessory use.  Using the std. EPA driving cycle, the LEAF uses 316 WH/mi, the VOLT (in EV mode) uses 340.  The GM EV1 ranges from 220 to 330 (http://www1.eere.energy.gov/vehiclesandfuels/avta/pdfs/fsev/sce_sum/ev1_panpba.pdf )

4.  Your WH/mi figure are not credible, at least not at highway speeds.

5.  Using your own data (online) for the FREEDOM EV with twelve 6V, 225 AH lead-acid batteries and supposedly 90 miles range @ 60 MPH (questionable) this is 180 WH/mi.  Do you really think it is more sophisticated than a LEAF or VOLT or EV1 ?  Like I said - gotta love your enthusiasm  http://www.evalbum.com/168   .

Best wishes with selling those things...

Kevin

 

Jerry dycus
User Rank
Gold
Re: Redistribution of Energy Production
Jerry dycus   2/10/2012 3:52:20 PM
NO RATINGS
 

           Just because EPA rates something their way doesn't effect real facts.  You say 34kwhr in a gal of gas which is true. 

            But 34kwhr of RE also has it and can be directly used in an EV. And as I said, most EV people use RE as I do.

           Let's actually calculate the numbers even you might be able to understand. The beauty of doing it right is it can be done different ways.  So let's say generation averages about 40% now including losses.   So 40% of 34kwhr is about 14kwhr.  Now my EV's use 50 and 100wthrs/mile so that is about 280 and 140 mpge from the grid and 680 and 340 mpge from 100% eff RE. No?

              Going cost wise grid 14kwhrs is about $1.40 which is also the US average.  So I get 340 miles from that is $.0041/mile.  A Prius gets $.07/mile for gasoline. Now how much more eff is that?  17x's cost wise!!  Energy wise about 3-6x's depending on electric source as I said in the first place.

             Nor did I mention the 3kwhrs needed just to refine the gal of gas which runs my EV 30-60 miles!! 

             I have extremely light, eff 2 seat EV's I admit, a Harley size trike and an all composite body/chassis 2 seat spotswagon stronger than a steel one. Though both a Karman Ghia EV and the EV-1 EV 2000lb Impact prototype got 100wthrs/mile too.  The 3000lb   production EV1 got 175wthrs/mile on lead batteries so not that out of line.

           So be a person that gets screwed every time they fill up with gas and support oil dictaors and terrorists if you want. I'll be laughing all the way to the bank as my EV's sell out as fast as I build them.

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