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Tim
User Rank
Platinum
Good concept
Tim   12/16/2011 6:25:32 AM
NO RATINGS
This is a good concept that does have potential.  My main concern would be the power grid being able to drain your EV down without you knowing it.  If you plug it in overnight to allow it to charge for the next day's use, you also allow the grid to pull what remaining energy you had stored which may leave you with a dead vehicle in the morning.  Hopefully, ther are safe guards in place to stop thsi from happening.

Jerry dycus
User Rank
Gold
Re: Good concept
Jerry dycus   12/16/2011 8:41:49 AM
NO RATINGS
 

  Yes V2G will greatly help the future grid though saying RE depends on storage isn't correct.

    First only large distant wind farms have the problem and they can have onsite biomass back up.

  Biomass, Solar thermal, geo thermal, hydro, biofuels, tidal/river are all steady or on demand. No?

  PV on homes/buildings in most places generator when power is needed most so is 5-10x's as valuable than steady sources or randomly intermitant ones.  And even there if many, widely spread out means RE will average out quite well.

As the facts show this whole ssue is a red herring made up by big coal and utilities as they know for retail customers RE is cost effect compared to coal in many places and that scares them big time.

 Facts are demand is far more variable that RE which is easily handled now, mostly by spinning reserve, producing more power than needed.   Where V2G saves utilities much cash is not having to run these and let the EV's, home/building battery pack handle the peaks/valleys minute to minute, saving much fuel and generator wear.

No new inverter is needed as EV's already have 50-200kw inverter onboard to control the motor.  Since 1995 AC Propulsion has built these V2G with a battery charger all in one  and Ford put them in E Rangers in the late 90's.  So not a new tech.

As for a drained battery, you'll put in a time where the battery is fully charged and can be changed by cellphone.  The Utilities will only use 10-20% of a system, not fully discharge them.  And since night is the low load, all EV's and home/building systems would be fully charged by morning.

How they will be used is max power for 1-5 minutes to handle a peak, them charged back up to fill a demnand valley, etc.

This can happen many times/day. As for wearing out the battery, most new good  lithium  ones claim 10k+ full cycles making it moot if they do.  Likely they will die from age problems before cycle death.

Finally the EV's pollute more because  they run from coal is false myth planted by coal supporters.  The EPA studied this yrs ago when plants were far dirtier and even then EV's charged from coal because of EV's eff, polluted less than cars.  Coal is now far cleaner though still deadly, has dropped 20% in the last few yrs and more coal  plants shutting or canceled , every day thankfully.  And as of last night when the budget bill passed without cutting new pollution regs, many more will be shut or changed to NG.

Personally because I live in an old oak forest I can't do solar or wind so I buy RE inexpensively.  Since I only use $23-45/month for all home, heating, AC, transport/EV charging  needs, it's not bad.  The cheapest energy is that which you don't use.

Ann R. Thryft
User Rank
Blogger
Re: Good concept
Ann R. Thryft   12/16/2011 12:39:33 PM
NO RATINGS

Jerry, can you be a little more explicit about what you mean by "Personally because I live in an old oak forest I can't do solar or wind so I buy RE inexpensively." I live in a redwood forest where solar is not possible--the trees are too dense and too tall. I'm looking into wind, but we don't really have that much here, either, and foir various reasons I can't harness the creek's energy. What kinds of RE/AE do you use? And why are your electrical expenses so low? 


Charles Murray
User Rank
Blogger
Re: Good concept
Charles Murray   12/16/2011 5:11:10 PM
NO RATINGS
Tim: I agree this is a concern. A similar concern would be a sudden, unexpected need for the car. Even if you leave enough charge to go a short distance, some EV batteries take eight hours to recharge at 240V.

Jerry dycus
User Rank
Gold
Re: Good concept
Jerry dycus   12/16/2011 7:39:52 PM
NO RATINGS
 

              I get no solar, just lots of shade which saves me much money on A/C, the big cost here in Fla.  The trees are so tall and we have extremely bad lightning here with windgens getting hit 1-2x's a yr.

            So I  pay extra, $5/200kwhr,  from my utility who buys it from producers, a mix of biomass and solar in my area.

             I use little power because I use just CFL's, laptop, flat TV, have a hot water switch and only turn it on when needed. I run temps at 60f in cold and 80f in summer with heated seat covers, blankets or a fan.  Plus my place is only 250sq'.  Also my EV's and workshop.  3.5-13kwhrs/day.

           And $10.50 of the bill is for billing, etc. I pay around $.13/kwhr.

           If you have more heating needs a very small water cooled 4-8hp diesel run at 1800 or better 1200rpm on used veg oil collected from fast food joints supplies both heat and electric needs.  Not sure why most up north doesn't do this as electric savings and sales can pay for even FF, especially NG.  

           What is really needed is a heat engine based on A/C-rankine tech that can be powered by burning any biomass or put into most furnances to make extra electricity.  

        Since you live on the west coast you certainly can buy RE from your utility is the easy way.

          Lots of power in water that runs 2mph or faster or can have some head height of more than a few feet.   If you can do that you'd be in high cotton . 

bellaire
User Rank
Bronze
evs dumping to grid
bellaire   12/19/2011 9:12:57 AM
NO RATINGS
If you would like power shedding then how about taking gas powered micro generators one stage further and allow them to be remotely started by the power generating companies.

Micro power generators are already available as a replacement for central heating boilers. The power companies can then pay you a premium for the power. In this way they can keep base power running without the need for power stations running just to service peak power.

jimwilliams57
User Rank
Silver
Re: Good concept
jimwilliams57   12/19/2011 9:41:27 AM
NO RATINGS
I'm no battery expert, but as I understand it most rechargables seem to have a limited number of discharge/charge cycles before they begin to degrade.  If this is true, why would I want to pay so much for an EV and then give away my battery life to the grid?

Besides, I want my vehicle ready at any time in case I need to use it.  After the expected charge time, I want a full charge no matter when I choose to use the EV.

3drob
User Rank
Platinum
Re: Good concept
3drob   12/19/2011 10:19:36 AM
NO RATINGS
Sorry if I'm too slow to get this, but how could this possibly be a solution to anything?  EV's are in use (i.e. not tethered to the power co) during peak demand (daytime), and charged during lower use periods (night time).  The only possible application would be if businesses/power co. provided smart charging stations (but even that's debatable since the typical charging time is about a work day, so no possibility of a charge/discharge/charge in time to go home or to lunch). 

Sorry pious green worker; you can't leave at quiting time today.  You'll have to wait a few extra hours today while your car charges back up.

jimwilliams57
User Rank
Silver
Re: Good concept
jimwilliams57   12/19/2011 10:24:13 AM
NO RATINGS
3drob, I agree whole heartedly.  If the power company needs battery backup, then let them buy the batteries.

ironhorse
User Rank
Iron
power to the people, if you will
ironhorse   12/19/2011 10:27:47 AM
NO RATINGS
Who is to own the energy stored in the EV?

Who is to own the service of providing the energy storage?

Who is to own the energy charge and discharge service at the single EV level?

The EV owner? The Utility? The State?

If this ownership is at the individual EV ownership level, I visualize a future "trash" home with a collection of old EV clunkers up on blocks connected to the grid generating a revenue trickle ... If individuals own the energy and services in their EVs, then power to the people, if you will.

 

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