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TJ McDermott
User Rank
Blogger
Re: Good concept
TJ McDermott   12/19/2011 2:23:06 PM
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Charles is correct.  In addition to all the hurdles for this concept, we'd also need rapid chargers developed.  Or easily swapped batteries, leave one in the charger and take one in the car.

HBJimmy
User Rank
Iron
Progress
HBJimmy   12/19/2011 12:33:03 PM
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It's a little hard to see the positives as a desk jockey.

Easier to imagine this boon to society, if you imagine that your commute might take you past the edge of the grid, where you add a little power to the 'non-grid' before returning home.  If, for instance, you were a developer, pressing the grid into the nearby forest, jungle or plain.  So little of that left in America, again it's hard to see the huge benefits to be had.  Notice the graph is pushing Pacific Asia, etc, for volume.  Of course - if you find yourself developing in other lands, where such expansion may be met with an unknowing welcome, well then sure.

But most people who would choose an EV would not take such a job.  At least they wouldn't have 20 years ago.  These days, there's all kinds of new ideas on the horizon.  Imagine living in an Asian village and never having a car - or a job!  And then you get a chance to work for these guys - who rent you an EV!  You get to rent a car at a fraction of the cost of buying one.  And because you have a new job, you can pay for that rental.  It's a major win-win-win.

Anyway, that's just one scenario where a mobile grid really pays off.  Otherwise, you could just have the battery that would have been powering your EV sitting right next to your electrical outlet, helping to balance the load.  Not a lot of incentive for that, unless you got paid for your service (i.e. reducing the cost of power to your home by $.001/kWhr or something).

ironhorse
User Rank
Iron
Re: EVs power back to the grid concerns.
ironhorse   12/19/2011 11:20:25 AM

If you are connected to the grid at work or other business, then the owner of the connection service (the business or their contractor) should charge the utility for the V2G service and contract payout or charging discounts with the EV owner for the battery capacity it provides.

If private property is a perpetuated concept, then removal or even storage of power without owner's permission would be theft or even trespass.  Then the EV owner should be able to configure the services the EV provides -- with Singularity, the EV charging system could be able to (as the owner's agent) autonegotiate how much energy services to sell and at what rate (At the right price, you might be willing to flatten your batteries and stay late at the office).   And as Agents, could the County's emergency services "Deputize" your EV?

William K.
User Rank
Platinum
EVs power back to the grid concerns.
William K.   12/19/2011 10:53:24 AM
The very forst comment from Tim matches my concern. The only time that I wouod connect my vehicle "to the grid" is when I need a charge. What happens if the grid discharges my car and I suddenly have to drive someplace, like a hospital emergency center, or even just to the store because I need something? What then?

The other fact is that most folks will be away from home during the highest demand parts of the day. If your car is recharging at work, do you really want to return your charge to the grid in the late afternoon? Besides that, how is "the grid" going to recognize who it got the power from if you are away from home?

One more question is about the relative efficiency of taking power back from hundreds of non-optimized sources instead of from a system designed for that purpose only?

Does Big Brother really know when I don't need to have my vehicle charged? Is Big Brother able to act intelligently for my benefit? I DON'T THINK SO!

WhEEngineer
User Rank
Gold
Re: power to the people, if you will
WhEEngineer   12/19/2011 10:38:17 AM
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(this isn't directed at ironhorse, I don't see where I can make a comment otherwise)  I'd like to see special electrical metering of EV's, so they could pay more or less depending on the time of day they are being charged, and so they could be assessed a road use tax which isn't being charged for EV now, everyone else pays it through gas taxes.  The rate of EV vehicles projected is very exponential on the chart, in this economy WHO is going to be buying these overpriced feel good vehicles (hint hint? the 1%), surely not people in Africa or the middle east as the chart implies.  Who would be crazy enough to buy a used one?  Their value goes to zero as the batteries die off.  Plus, they are causing fires.  They are overpriced glorified government subsidised golf carts.

ironhorse
User Rank
Iron
power to the people, if you will
ironhorse   12/19/2011 10:27:47 AM
NO RATINGS
Who is to own the energy stored in the EV?

Who is to own the service of providing the energy storage?

Who is to own the energy charge and discharge service at the single EV level?

The EV owner? The Utility? The State?

If this ownership is at the individual EV ownership level, I visualize a future "trash" home with a collection of old EV clunkers up on blocks connected to the grid generating a revenue trickle ... If individuals own the energy and services in their EVs, then power to the people, if you will.

 

jimwilliams57
User Rank
Silver
Re: Good concept
jimwilliams57   12/19/2011 10:24:13 AM
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3drob, I agree whole heartedly.  If the power company needs battery backup, then let them buy the batteries.

3drob
User Rank
Platinum
Re: Good concept
3drob   12/19/2011 10:19:36 AM
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Sorry if I'm too slow to get this, but how could this possibly be a solution to anything?  EV's are in use (i.e. not tethered to the power co) during peak demand (daytime), and charged during lower use periods (night time).  The only possible application would be if businesses/power co. provided smart charging stations (but even that's debatable since the typical charging time is about a work day, so no possibility of a charge/discharge/charge in time to go home or to lunch). 

Sorry pious green worker; you can't leave at quiting time today.  You'll have to wait a few extra hours today while your car charges back up.

jimwilliams57
User Rank
Silver
Re: Good concept
jimwilliams57   12/19/2011 9:41:27 AM
NO RATINGS
I'm no battery expert, but as I understand it most rechargables seem to have a limited number of discharge/charge cycles before they begin to degrade.  If this is true, why would I want to pay so much for an EV and then give away my battery life to the grid?

Besides, I want my vehicle ready at any time in case I need to use it.  After the expected charge time, I want a full charge no matter when I choose to use the EV.

bellaire
User Rank
Bronze
evs dumping to grid
bellaire   12/19/2011 9:12:57 AM
NO RATINGS
If you would like power shedding then how about taking gas powered micro generators one stage further and allow them to be remotely started by the power generating companies.

Micro power generators are already available as a replacement for central heating boilers. The power companies can then pay you a premium for the power. In this way they can keep base power running without the need for power stations running just to service peak power.

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