HOME  |  NEWS  |  BLOGS  |  MESSAGES  |  FEATURES  |  VIDEOS  |  WEBINARS  |  INDUSTRIES  |  FOCUS ON FUNDAMENTALS
REGISTER   |   LOGIN   |   HELP
<<  <  Page 3/5  >  >>
Rob Spiegel
User Rank
Blogger
Re: Prescription vs observation
Rob Spiegel   12/12/2011 2:41:32 PM
NO RATINGS
Hi Chuck,

Your link here goes to the media contacts page at Philips. I'd like to see the article. I have a feeling we're in for a long ride on getting long-lasting inexpensive batteries.

Charles Murray
User Rank
Blogger
Re: Prescription vs observation
Charles Murray   12/12/2011 1:50:39 PM
NO RATINGS
The comments about Moore's Law are right on the money. Consider this comment by Bill Gates in 2010 about batteries: "They haven't improved hardly at all. There are deep physical limits. I am funding five battery start-ups and there are probably 50 out there. (But) that is a very tough problem. It may not be solvable in any sort of economic way." See the article, "We've been spoiled by Moore's Law," here: http://news.cnet.com/8301-13860_3-20013064-56.html

PPihkala
User Rank
Iron
Gasoline Fuel Cells while waiting for E-CAT
PPihkala   12/12/2011 1:34:36 PM
NO RATINGS
We all know that current battery tech is not good enough for EV built for masses. It remains to be seen whether battery innovations can change that.

One thing that fuel cell discussion typically does not mention is fuel cells using gasoline as their energy source. Gasoline fuel cells (GFC) should raise the MPG of typical car by 2x or 3x. Of course that will not be zero pollution, but those could lower the emissions without needing any infrastructure changes, since they would be using the same old gasoline, just less per each mile. Now the important question will be what would be the price of such GFC and what weaknesses would those have, assuming affordable GFC.

I think GFC would give a way to improve MPG while we wait that E-CAT comes to cars and gives us zero tailpipe emissions.

Ann R. Thryft
User Rank
Blogger
Prescription vs observation
Ann R. Thryft   12/12/2011 1:21:12 PM
NO RATINGS

I think Chuck's earlier comment about gasoline-powered vehicles' performance giving us higher expectations, combined with visualeyes' comment about higher expectations that Moore's Law has given us in all technologies, are worth thinking about. I've always found it interesting that many have treated Moore's Law not as the simple observation it originally was when Moore made it, but as a prediction and even a prescription about what we should do with technology and what it should do for us.


D. Sherman
User Rank
Silver
Li-Ion compared to gasoline
D. Sherman   12/12/2011 12:37:17 PM
NO RATINGS
Take a look at that picture of a Li-Ion battery pack and then visualize a gas tank. That alone should kill any fantasy about batteries being a substitute for combustible liquids. In terms of motive power, the Chevy Volt's battery pack is equal to about ONE gallon of gasoline, and look at all the complexity it takes to make it even that good. I might also add that a gas tank doesn't wear out, and is trivial to recycle.

In defense of battery packs, though, the real standard of crash safety should be whether they're as safe as gas tanks. If they don't cause dangerous fires any more readily than 20 gallons of gas, that should be good enough. I realize that we live in a litigious society and anything new and mildly dangerous is bound to attract lawsuits that things that are old and highly dangerous never would. If electricity and gasoline were invented today, the public would never be allowed access to either of them.

visualeyes
User Rank
Iron
Re: Whither Fuel-Cell Vehicles
visualeyes   12/12/2011 12:26:14 PM
NO RATINGS
My opinion exactly... Were people able to consider the electric car on a par with post WWII tech, at the start of post war competition and population mobilty, comparing electric would be easier.. Also Moores law in electronics raises expectations for improvments in other technologies unrealistically. AS for battery weight, I would gladly trade my 1264 pound lead acid pack in for a 600 pound lithium pack if it didn't mean handing over my $10 K to a foriegn government's company. Having converted rather recently, in 2003,  never to turn back to gas, it's harder every day to understand why the US is still clinging to such a 20th century technology. Imagine YOUR laptop on AAA batteries!

TOP
User Rank
Gold
Bad reporting regarding Li-ion batteries
TOP   12/12/2011 12:08:18 PM
NO RATINGS
There are many Li-ion chemistries. The various chemistries have widely ranging properties including inherent safety. Some have known issues with safety and some don't. The ones that do have issues tend to be those that can store the most energy and are tricky to charge quickly. People that use them also tend to run the cells from 80% charged to 20% charged to avoid either overcharge or undercharge which can shorten life or ruin the battery.

The Li-ion chemistries that don't have safety issues tend to not store nearly as much energy but can be charged and discharged extremely quickly and can be run from full charge to full discharge.

Chevy went with a chemistry that had safety issues.

So when reporting always specify the Li-ion chemistry involved so that the whole technology doesn't get a bad rep because of a few.

And I'm old enough to remember the Pinto gas tank problem. Gasoline is extremely dangerous and all that stands between safety and disaster is a fraction of a millimeter of steel or a couple millimeters of plastic. A friend of mine lost a daughter when someone T-boned his station wagon and the gas incinerated her.

The biggest issue with the chemistry that Chevy is using is to predict the delayed reaction.

And the other more imminent issue with battery power is training emergency responders in dealing with the potentially deadly orange wires after a crash.

TOP
User Rank
Gold
Re: Whither Fuel-Cell Vehicles
TOP   12/12/2011 11:52:59 AM
NO RATINGS
In the words of a friend who worked in this industry, COST. Think the Volt is high priced? Fuel cell vehicles would be even more so. You can't get past the high material cost.

Storage of hydrogen in a dense form at low pressure is possible, but again costly and heavy.

Dave Palmer
User Rank
Platinum
Re: Batteries and Infrastructure Excuses
Dave Palmer   12/12/2011 11:14:18 AM
NO RATINGS
@jhankwitz: Actually, neither of the bombs dropped on Japan during World War II was a hydrogen bomb.  The first hydrogen bomb (the Teller-Ulam design) was tested by the U.S. in 1952.  And the fusion fuel used in hydrogen bombs is either deuterium or tritium (or a mixture of the two), rather than ordinary hydrogen.

As far as the Hindenberg disaster (which I think more people today remember from the cover of the first Led Zeppelin album rather than the actual event, which took place in 1937), there has been debate about the exact role which hydrogen played.

That being said, you're right that perception and reality are often two different things.  This is particularly true when it comes to safety and risk.  Studies have repeatedly shown that our brains react much more strongly to unfamiliar risks than to familar risks, even if the familar event is much more likely.  A now-classic example is the decision of many people to drive rather than flying after the September 11 attacks.  Since driving is actually much more dangerous than flying, it's believed that this may have lead to about 1000 additional fatalities.

In any case, the same thing which makes hydrogen relatively safe also makes it a relatively poor fuel: its energy density is low compared to batteries, and especially compared to gasoline.

Rob Spiegel
User Rank
Blogger
Re: Whither Fuel-Cell Vehicles
Rob Spiegel   12/12/2011 11:00:56 AM
NO RATINGS
With all of the press about EVs, I had the impression that technology was sound and that EVs were the future. It seemed it was just a matter of scale and volume before prices would come down to a level that would make these vehicles affordable. Your recent articles are penetrating that myth a bit, Chuck. 

<<  <  Page 3/5  >  >>


Partner Zone
Latest Analysis
Eric Chesak created a sensor that can detect clouds, and it can also measure different sources of radiation.
Festo's BionicKangaroo combines pneumatic and electrical drive technology, plus very precise controls and condition monitoring. Like a real kangaroo, the BionicKangaroo robot harvests the kinetic energy of each takeoff and immediately uses it to power the next jump.
Practicing engineers have not heeded Yoda's words.
Design News and Digi-Key presents: Creating & Testing Your First RTOS Application Using MQX, a crash course that will look at defining a project, selecting a target processor, blocking code, defining tasks, completing code, and debugging.
Rockwell Automation recently unveiled a new safety relay that can be configured and integrated through existing software to program safety logic in devices.
More:Blogs|News
Design News Webinar Series
3/27/2014 11:00 a.m. California / 2:00 p.m. New York / 7:00 p.m. London
2/27/2014 11:00 a.m. California / 2:00 p.m. New York / 7:00 p.m. London
12/18/2013 Available On Demand
11/20/2013 Available On Demand
Quick Poll
The Continuing Education Center offers engineers an entirely new way to get the education they need to formulate next-generation solutions.
Apr 21 - 25, Creating & Testing Your First RTOS Application Using MQX
SEMESTERS: 1  |  2  |  3  |  4  |  5


Focus on Fundamentals consists of 45-minute on-line classes that cover a host of technologies. You learn without leaving the comfort of your desk. All classes are taught by subject-matter experts and all are archived. So if you can't attend live, attend at your convenience.
Next Class: April 29 - Day 1
Sponsored by maxon precision motors
Learn More   |   Login   |   Archived Classes
Twitter Feed
Design News Twitter Feed
Like Us on Facebook

Sponsored Content

Technology Marketplace

Datasheets.com Parts Search

185 million searchable parts
(please enter a part number or hit search to begin)
Copyright © 2014 UBM Canon, A UBM company, All rights reserved. Privacy Policy | Terms of Service