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Re: Volt or Leaf?
JRoque   11/3/2011 9:58:03 AM
Thank you Tim! They always forget that point about how power stations work, don't they?.

Let's not forget how they always leave out the energy efficiencies and costs of drilling, pumping, transporting, piping, refining, more transporting and delivery of gasoline. Besides, there are zero-emission, nothing-to-burn forms of generating electricity but the same can't be said for gasoline.
I've commented on this before but, a Volt? First of all, a Volt is a hybrid, not an electric car. Why not compare the Leaf to a Prius? I imagine the Volt started as a pure electric, like the EV-1. Then they realized they were going to lose their shirts since there aren't any wear or consumable parts or require "tune-ups" at the dealer. So they threw in a gasser engine, mated the two with a gearbox from hell (in terms of complexity) and called it "Volt". I think "Fume" would have been more appropriate.

Horsepower of gasoline engines, someone said. Obviously doesn't know that, pound for pound, an electric motor has several times the instant torque of an ICE and it does it at many times the efficiency. Slow EVs? Go to YouTube and search for "Black Current 9.5" It's an old VW bug with a DC motor and common lithium cells. It does 0-60 in 1.6 seconds.

EVs are not for everyone due to current battery technology limitation. But wait a couple of years. New cells are coming that will match gas ranges.



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Re: Volt or Leaf?
herbissimus   11/3/2011 10:08:22 AM
the edison institute claims the grid uses about 8 % of the electricity generated -not so much compared to loss in an ice. a power plant recently built nearby has a combined cycle with nat gas input with an eff. of about 55% . grid losses are porportional to the current squared so off peak charging will be even better grid wise. so there's places where the e v will kick ass !!

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Volt goes and goes, Leaf doesn't...
fast_ed   11/3/2011 10:23:06 AM
I recently took a Volt on a 750 mile 2 day trip. I only charged it one time and gassed up a couple times. This trip could not be made in a Leaf. The Leaf gets 60-100 miles on a full charge and can take as long as 20 hours to get a full charge. Other than as a novelty for local use, its not real useful. In my opinion, the decision is easy. In the Volt, you can drive all electric when it meets your driving needs or it seamlessly switches to gas when necessary.

According to Motor Trend, "This is a fully developed vehicle with seamlessly integrated systems and software, a real car that provides a unique driving experience. And commuters may never need to buy gas!" Without adding numerous options, the Volt is $31,645 after tax credit.  

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Electric vehicles
nicart56   11/3/2011 10:32:02 AM
If you have a sufficient set up at home of a wind turbine and solar panels-then how do you have a carbon footprint when plugging in your electric vehicle at home?

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I wouldn't buy either
jimwilliams57   11/3/2011 10:52:30 AM
I occasionally choose to drive a few hundred miles to visit family or take a vacation.  For me, a vehicle must be able to drive several hundred miles without stopping.  And refueling should take 10 minutes, at most.  An all electric vehicle just can't do that.  So, clearly I wouldn't buy a Leaf.

Other than price, I have one concern regarding the Volt that I haven't been able to get answered.  They say it will travel several hundred miles using battery and gasoline. But all the performance numbers were measured using battery only or battery/gasoline in combination.  What's the max speed when the battery is depleated?  Acceleration?  Will it go 70-80 mph up a hill with a depleated battery?  I would need to know these things before I would be willing to seriously look at the Volt.

Environmentally, battery power isn't any better, and may even be worse, than gasoline or diesel.

I drive a Silverado Hybrid.  I only bought it because it was used.  I would never have paid the full price when a gasoline only vehicle is so much less expensive.

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Freedom to choose
Watashi   11/3/2011 11:02:37 AM
If I had to choose, the Volt would be the only one to support my work commute length.  But for $40K I expect a lot more than a marginal performer that looks very uninspiring and would kill me in a wreck.

My current car cost me $40K (Dodge Charger R/T Daytona w/ 5.7L HEMI). While I only get 20mpg in town (up to 28mpg highway), I have performance that is more like the Tesla ($100K or so), looks that turn heads, size enough to carry family and friends, and could survive quite a wreck.

Not everyone wants to drive triple digit speeds,but some of us want the option. For others; feel free to drive your little cubes to the cube farm.

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Re: Electric vehicles
gafisher   11/3/2011 11:57:58 AM
"If you have a sufficient set up at home of a wind turbine and solar panels ..."

"[A] sufficient setup" for charging the Volt has to supply 12 amps at 120V for ten hours (presumably the Leaf has similar requirements) which will require a pretty large solar panel even in a sunny location, or a rather substantial turbine and reliable wind currents, neither of which is likely for the typical buyer.  We could consider the carbon footprint involved in building, installing and maintaining those devices but frankly it's probably a moot issue.

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Leaf or Volt
Absalom   11/3/2011 12:02:36 PM
If the EV's were less than $10,000 and practical to tow behind my pickup for use in urban areas, perhaps I'd buy one.

The carbon fooprint bull is all part of the man caused warming/greenhouse lie so that doesn't enter into my calculation at all.

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Re: I wouldn't buy either
JRoque   11/3/2011 12:06:54 PM
Hello JimW,

For a Volt:

>What's the max speed when the battery is depleated? 

40 miles, if you don't go too fast


0-60, 8.5 secs

>Will it go 70-80 mph up a hill with a depleated battery?

Yes it will, and therein lies the tale. It's a hybrid so at 70 MPH the gas engine connects directly to the transmission and you get pulled by a 3 cylinder ICE. So your hill grade needs to be 3 cyl friendly.

>Environmentally, battery power isn't any better, and may even be worse, than >gasoline or diesel.

Source for this statement, please? The amount of "contaminants" in Lithium cells is minuscule. Further, cells are fully recyclable just like that 12V lead-acid battery in your car.

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Re: Volt goes and goes, Leaf doesn't...
gafisher   11/3/2011 12:23:12 PM
"Without adding numerous options, the Volt is $31,645 after tax credit."


There's no way to know how much of the cost of the Volt is subsidized before it hits the showroom; the GM EV1, which can reasonably be considered Volt's predecessor, is believed to have cost about $100,000 per vehicle to produce.  Certainly not all of the billions we gave GM went to bonuses and political donations.

But even considering just the selling price quoted above, think how many of your neighbors will be forced, through their taxes, to pay for that juicy tax credit for the fortunate few who can take advantage of it.  For every Volt owner who gets a credit, dozens, probably hundreds of other car owners (and non-car owners!) will pay a tax premium.

Baseball, hot dogs, apple pie and ... others pay?

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