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Cat-Man
User Rank
Silver
Been there done that
Cat-Man   10/7/2011 2:09:30 PM
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Anyone can search YouTube and see some young guys screwing around with  hand held leaf blowers providing boost on 4cyl and 6cyl cars on a dyno. These vids are usually not far from some other guys that hold a nitrous bottle and discharge it at an engines air inlet. Taking up as much space, weight, engineered know-how and likely money as a direct engine driven supercharger the electric-supercharger does not have all that much to offer.  It seems to me Ogura with all their experience in clutches might be better off simply making an engine driven part-time blower., but of course they'd cut themselves out of an electric blower drive motor. 

patb2009
User Rank
Gold
Re: Been there done that
patb2009   10/11/2013 12:41:33 PM
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While the power density of a turbo charger is higher then the power density of a 

electric supercharger, the cost and simplicity of an electrical supercharger is way better.

The cost is below that of a air conditioner compressor, the controls are simple electronics

rather then touchy metering valves, there is no chance for a runaway, and  it packages

way easier lacking the complex plumbing of a turbo.

 

 

 

 

 

ben.fagen
User Rank
Iron
Reality check, please!
ben.fagen   1/24/2014 3:39:30 PM
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So, has anybody done the math? The peak air requirement for a 2.0 liter engine at 6,000RPM and 15psi boost is 230scfm. The minimum power required to run the super- or turbo-charger is approximately 12 HP. At 750 watts/HP, this would require approximately 9KW, exclusive of efficiency, which is way beyond the capacity of 12 volt automotive systems (2 KW more or less). Yes, it doable, but requires a high(er) voltage electrical system. From a weight and cost standpoint, the exhaust-driven turbocharger looks pretty good!

MYRONB
User Rank
Gold
Electric Supercharger
MYRONB   10/8/2011 11:52:55 AM
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It seems at times that there is nothing new under the sun.  I recall that in the 1950s, the Turbonique Company offered an electric motor (looked like a starter motor) driven centrifugal supercharger kit.  it worked with widely varying degrees of success (or failure).

The company sold several other products including pure rockets, turbine motors, and what looked like a really neat axial-flow gas turbine.  While an undergraduate at the U of I, I tried to sign on as a Turbonique dealer.  it all fell through when the company's founder was indicted on mail fraud charges and Turbonique  was dissolved.

Regards,

Myron Boyajian

Ivan Kirkpatrick
User Rank
Platinum
Demand Flexibility
Ivan Kirkpatrick   10/8/2011 5:49:10 PM
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I think the biggest advantage is going to be the flexibility of operation.  The supercharger can be turned off and on and does not have to be continuously engaged.  I would like to know how much power it uses since it has to come from somewhere.  A battery, depending on it's size is fine but adds more to the complexity.  Driving the supercharger from the vehicles alternator might not be very efficient overall.  Having the ability to boost engine power output for short term use might be helpful but it seems the power to drive the compressor has to be a lot less than the increase in engine output.

Tim
User Rank
Platinum
Motor driven / computer controlled
Tim   10/9/2011 12:57:22 PM
NO RATINGS
Using the on-board computer to control the supercharger is a great asset to achieving the higher MPG requirements.  It does allow for separation of the charger from the RPM's of the engine.  This is the kind of thing that is thinking out of the box.

Steve Ravet
User Rank
Blogger
more details
Steve Ravet   10/10/2011 12:02:17 PM
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It would be interesting to see more details about how efficiency is improved.  Is the electric motor more efficient that the typical belt drive?  And more efficient compared to what?  A larger displacement engine?  What are the benefits and tradeoffs compared to a turbo, which really does increase efficiency by using heat energy from the exhaust that is otherwise wasted?

 

William K.
User Rank
Platinum
Electric supercharger provides boost for engines.
William K.   10/10/2011 8:24:57 PM
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A supercharger under the control of an optimally programed ECU could indeed be quite something. An electric motor driven supercharger could be quite useful on a serious dragster, where it would not matter if it completely drained a car-sized battery in just a few seconds. MY point is that the belt driven superchargers take several horsepower to drive the small engine types, and the larger ones take several tens of horsepowers, and that kind of power is quite a lot to get from a 12 or 24 volt motor. 

MY point is that until there are some actual dynomoeter results, with actual numbers, that an electrically driven supercharger is just an interesting concept. Consider that at 760 watts per horsepower, a 12 volt motor would draw 63.3 amps, if it were 100% efficient. A ten horsepower motor would draw 633 amps, and it would not be a small motor. So while it might work for a five second run on a drag-race car, it does not seem like a usable product for other vehicles.

However, if they have been able to come up with a DC motor delivering much more than 100% efficiency, that is a very newsworthy achievement.

Sawmill Engineer
User Rank
Iron
Not sure why this has even been published...
Sawmill Engineer   10/19/2011 4:05:16 PM
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This seems to be an attempt at looking to produce a product without fully researching it.  And written by sales people who think they are engineers because they think they know how a graph works.

All a supercharger (or turbocharger) does for an engine is to stuff more air into the engine so that more fuel can be burned.  It does not necessarily improve engine efficiency.  So yes, a smaller displacement engine could replace a larger engine.  But efficiency will likely not change much.  You will still burn more fuel to get the extra power.  But you might be able to tailor the boost pressure at any given RPM to maximize efficiency.

The benefit that the electric drive supercharger has over one mechanically driven by the engine is that there will be boost available at low engine speeds, and variable boost at any RPM.  

I'm not sure that a low power (12V) motor can put out enough to properly drive a supercharger in an automotive setting--maybe thats why the article discussion wanders over to hybrids where some decent electrical power for the supercharger is available from the vehicle motive power battery bank.  1 hp at 12V is 60+ amps, at the high end of typical loads in an automobile. A blower will likely require 1-5+ hp??

They also have forgotten that the variable speed blower might be able to spread the "sweet spot" or highest effiency area over a broad range of RPM.  Their simplistic graph doesn't reflect this.  But they also have not presented any real engine test data to confirm any of this.  Nor do they suggest how much power a supercharger blower needs to provide boost for a typical 1-2 liter engine. 

I'm wondering if a small hydrostatic drive might make more sense to run a blower than the electric drive they are pushing.

Jon.

 

 

SoCalPE
User Rank
Gold
Re: Not sure why this has even been published...
SoCalPE   10/19/2011 6:11:47 PM
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Well said, Jon,  I have the same reservations about the realized efficiencies in a system like this.  It is similar to all the sites that boast of improved engine performance with electrolysis created H2 gas supplied to the engine intake.  None of these discuss the amount of energy required to breakdown the water.  So, I'm with a lot of the comments here.  In the energy balance big picture, this electric blower system is more efficient compared to what?

kleetus
User Rank
Silver
Re: Not sure why this has even been published...
kleetus   10/19/2011 9:07:49 PM
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I agree as well. These over unity device claims are a tad far fetched, but there may be some merrit to this. Doubtful, but maybe. What they show looks to be a roots type compressor, or a lysolm screw type device. The later operates much more efficiently than a roots at lower rpm.

The electric motor attached to this looks to be fairly sizeable, so it might produce 10-20 HP peak for a short time, and then basically go back to loafing when the engine isn't being asked to perform at max capacity.

Another aspect to this operation that may be being overlooked is that you could in fact belt, chain or gear drive the blower to run from the engine crankshaft, but put the throttle butterfly ahead of it. When demand is not high, it's only going to compress as much air as is required. (we did this same thing on a 302 mustang, worked great. instant boot at idle, and from 1000 rpm to redline produced solid 13 PSI boost pressure.

I can hear the complaint of lost efficiency at maximum rpm with light load spinning that compressor needlessly... ok, fine.. put an electro hydraulic, or electro viscus coupling between the belt/chain/gear drive and the input shaft of the compressor, and let the ECU modulate it for best performance.

Only other option I can think of is borrow (yet again) some technology from the GM 2 stroke diesels used in locomotoives. Early units used huge roots blowers driven right from the engine, but the later turboed engines used a hyprid drive of their own.... gear driven at low speeds to be able to start and idle, but once engine speed was up a bit, the exhauste turbine overran a one way clutch from that gear drive and spun the compressor to higher RPM as needed by load demand. Again, your variable viscus coupling could be used here too.

 

There... problem solved! (although personally I'd rather have a real motor!)

ASmith
User Rank
Iron
Not a good option for light trucks
ASmith   1/21/2014 2:35:19 PM
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The article mentions fuel economy standards for light trucks.  This device might be an OK option for some passenger cars (if it works in the first place, given the issues raised in other comments), but not in a truck.   Any technology that provides only brief bursts of additional power is not useful for pulling a loaded trailer up a mountain when maximum power may be required for extended periods.

patb2009
User Rank
Gold
Re: Not a good option for light trucks
patb2009   1/24/2014 5:40:28 PM
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Low gear helps, there is no real requirement for a truck fully loaded to climb a hill at 60 MPH, it's tolerable for such a vehicle to climb at 35 MPH, and in fact may be desirable due to switchbacks.

 

fredsay
User Rank
Gold
superchargers
fredsay   1/27/2014 8:57:12 AM
NO RATINGS
A supercharger (or turbocharger) increases the compression within the cylinder. To compensate for increased compression, it also needs to add more fuel (otherwise the combustion will be too lean and that can lead to other problems). Any efficiency is due to the increased horsepower/torque, but not necessarily to mpg. Plus, higher compression means higher octane is required or you'll get detonation. So even if your mpg increases, so does your cost for a gallon of gas.

In my experience, most cars are tuned to give a rich mixture from the factory. Rich mixtures are safer than lean mixtures. Go too lean and you'll burn a piston. Getting an aftermarket tune using a wideband O2 sensor on a dyno will improve efficiency, and if done correctly, by adjusting fuel throughout the rpm range, mpg will improve without compromising the integrity of the engine. You'll also get more horsepower to boot, and if your engine currently runs on regular gas, you can still use the same octane.

But car manufacturers are just as concerned about warranty replacements on engines. Tuning an engine rich means fewer warranty issues. Tuning an engine leaner could mean more engine failures within the warranty period, so that probably won't happen from the manufacturer. Unfortunately, getting an aftermarket tune could void your warranty.



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