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jmiller
User Rank
Platinum
Good idea---but let's still make sure the machine works
jmiller   9/21/2011 10:57:51 PM
NO RATINGS
I understand the focus on energy star and water usage and everything.  But I hope as the government removes more water the consumer is still allowed to have a basic level of performance.  I hate to see dishwashers that barely get the detergent off of the dishes.

And I strangly question the ability of our government to do anything, much less understand the intracacies of the average appliance.

Baldrick
User Rank
Iron
Re: resisting CER
Baldrick   9/21/2011 5:40:03 PM
NO RATINGS

There are in fact areas in which there are universal power standards that work for every country in the world. The main examples are the Laptop, Netbook, Tablet PC and GSM mobile. This was a necessity so everybody made it work.


In a previous life I had to work with many suppliers and I often asked them about supplying to other countries.


I asked why one European UPS manufacture (large 3-phase) did not offer their products in the US. He said that they had to get their units certified against the IEC standards, then ship units to the US for UL certification. They felt that they should concentrate on the emerging markets like China.


I also asked a US manufacture about exporting their products around the world and what were the problems. He said that they easily found a universal power supply with worldwide certification, but that wasn’t the problem. When he exports he only needs to supply type of 32A power connector (IEC 309). When a supplies to the US he asks the customer which power connector is required because there are so many. There is also a special US version of the IEC 309.


http://www.quail.com/nema_chart.aspx


The current situation has not developed because of excessive regulation, but a lack of standardization. This has been driven by sectional interests not Bureaucrats. Standardization will require leadership not lip service. If everybody really wants to reduce costs in the US then drop any standard that overlaps with the IEC.


I couldn’t agree with you more about education… education is the future.

PS: Lets hear from others

sensor pro
User Rank
Gold
Re: resisting CER
sensor pro   9/21/2011 8:31:15 AM
NO RATINGS
I guess i need to refer you to a commonly known tool: dictionary.
Bureacrat is an official who works by fixed routine without exercising intelligent judgment.

I would hardly call is a compliment !

So, let us stay on the real subject. We can all draem about global unity and strive for best and most logical standards for the total world, however we have a problem having common stadards in US. Each state has it own set of rules and regulation, and it is because the real bureacrats want to justify their pay and existance.

Every country has some things that are better then US. Japan has the most advanced phone industry with phones years ahead of US. It is not because they know how to make phones better, but because the education level of its users demands this. This all comes back to basics: education and demand. We have problems with education, and until it is fixed, US will be behind some other coutries in some areas.

Personally, I'm not convinced that if all of us change our power supplies in our PCs, our utilities will drop electric charges.

Regards, and have a great day.


Baldrick
User Rank
Iron
Re: resisting CER
Baldrick   9/21/2011 4:13:02 AM
NO RATINGS

I’m interested to see that you regard being called a Bureaucrat as a personal attack, there are many who would take it as a complement.

To the point.

As of 2009 (the last time I undertook a review of appliance power standards), the EU had the toughest standards, which are mandated 2012. Although, I now understand that Japan is reviewing its standards in light of their recent tragedy. So if any manufacture wants to sell a product outside of the US they will typically design for the highest standard. This makes perfect economic sense, you don’t want to make too many different versions (Cisco is a good example). But many also produce a version just for the US because this country is such a big market. What currently happens is that the junk is sold to markets with the least standards.

A good example is the PC power supply. Most of those sold in the US are very inefficient 70% at best, THDI > 80%, True PF of 0.6 leading and a standby power draw of 20W or more. What goes to the rest of the world is efficiencies > 80 (Best practice > 90), THDI <25%, True PF of > 0.9 and a standby power draw of <2W. If all of the PC power supplies in the US were to this standard or better, you would actually see a large drop in the countries power consumption, plus an improvement in the power quality. A quick check on Amazon of computer power supplies shows that the difference between junk and good practice is as little as $20, meaning it’s a Win-Win.

The US standards are not the most highest in the world, in fact the US has some of the lowest when it comes to appliances and power. To repeat, China has tougher power standards than the US.

As far as worker safety is concerned, again the US does not have the highest standards (from memory) the EU is tougher.

What would happen if the world had one tough appliance power standard, no one nation would have any advantage. Power consumption in the US would drop, utility bills would be reduced, coal consumption would reduce. Everybody here should be pushing for one global standard, not attempting to avoid standards.

sensor pro
User Rank
Gold
Re: resisting CER
sensor pro   9/21/2011 12:35:38 AM
NO RATINGS
I would prefer to keep things at professional level and not call other terms or names without any concrete proof. This forum is to provide opinions on subjects, not on participants. Lets keep it professional !!!

Now let us examine reality. Every country has a few firms that are an example of industrial excelence with satelites in other countries. I still remember visiting Zeis, which was a flagship firm of Eastern Germany. Their engineers used 100W soldering irons to solder 32 gauge wires, and used meters produced before I was born. Thheir product was great but expensive. Suntech could be also a good company, but for every Suntech there are hundreds if not thousands of firms located in areas where you would not even want to visit for a day. I'm sure you would not want to drink water or eat out in that area. We all now what I'm talking about. This is what I call "HELL" areas, not Arizona. Lets be serious.

It is exacly those producers that flood the market with low cost products. It is exacly those producers that do not have any reasonable regulations for HAZ-MAT, QC, personnel, etc...  This is how they market their products: cheap.

On the other hand we have local laws that regulate to death every little thing. This is why our auto producers have an immediate $7--$9 dissandvantage in sallary against any far east car producer. Production managers would rather spend a weekend with their mothers in law then one hour with OSHA inspectors/regulators.

And you want to give them more funding !?!?!  Are you serious !!!

I stopped listening to President's speaches long ago. In my opinion it is unpatriotic to distroy induatry after industry and weaken the country. Try to find a machine shop in PA, NY, NJ  that had no layoffs. Where are the projects ?! 

I will provide youwith  an answer: CHINA.

We do not sell cars in China not because of toughest pollution or fuel economy standards, but bacuse of 200% duty.

We are not blaming others, we are venting our frustration due to gross missmanagement from the top down, waste and uncontrolled regulations that damage our manufactures and the economy.

On a personal note, I was very surprized with your reply, but to make you feel better, I will sign off with a term that you were so gratious of awarding me with.

Sincerely,

The "Bureaucrat"

Baldrick
User Rank
Iron
Re: resisting CER
Baldrick   9/20/2011 7:51:29 PM
NO RATINGS

Listen guys, stop blaming others.

If you want the EPA and other regulators to do a good job, give them the funding so that they can. The current policy is to reduce the funding for regulators so that the organization has no teeth.

Many countries around the world, China, Germany and now Japan are short of generating capacity.  While it’s possible to build new power stations, it takes many years to bring them on line. Most countries have realized that it’s also easier and cheaper to reduce the power consumption of existing products by increasing Energy Efficiency. Improving the Energy Efficiency of existing products is cheap and easy, you just need to prevent the junk being sold.

The US faces an energy crises as well with aging distribution infrastructure. The utilities and states want the FED to fund the upgrade, who do you think should fund the work?

In a speech the President stated that he would like to see cars made in the US in Korea etc, but US standard cars do not meet the Korean pollution or fuel economy standards. The toughest pollution or fuel economy standards are for cars sold in China. If you go to China you will see lots of cars form Europe, Japan, Korea and now China these are the countries with companies that can meet the challenge.

Baldrick
User Rank
Iron
Re: Resisting california energy regulations
Baldrick   9/20/2011 5:19:32 PM
NO RATINGS

@Sensor pro. More rhetoric than realty, you are clearly a Bureaucrat not an Engineer. The biggest PV manufacture in the world (2010) was Suntech China. If you visit this plant it would look just like any other high tech facility anywhere is the world. This company even has a plant in the US. In some place called Arizona.

 

The founder and CEO was trained in Australia at the University of New South Wales, the world leader in PV technology.

 

Or was Arizona the Hell area you were talking about?

 

 

sensor pro
User Rank
Gold
Re: Resisting california energy regulations
sensor pro   9/20/2011 1:11:07 PM
NO RATINGS
You are making many great points, however my point is a bit different. It is not political. My point that people with no understanding or with minimal understanding of an issue are creating regulations that are detramental to the industry. Two main problems arise. One is that makes our product more costly and less compatitive. Second is that the regulations are so rediculous and difficult to reach, that some try to go around and then being fined and in extreme cases procecuted. In both cases it damages the industry and kills jobs.

just look at the solar panel firm that just wend under. One of the largest complains was:  REGULATIONS. On the other hand the chineese firms are bringing is cheaper products made in "HELL" areas, and nobody cares. At the end we lost jobs and over 500 millions. This mone is yours and mine and everybodies.

California should have put a special duty on the import and logical regulations on local producers. This would be a win-win solution.

In our case we all lost ( liberal and conservatives alike ).

Jimelectr
User Rank
Iron
Re: Resisting california energy regulations
Jimelectr   9/20/2011 12:46:41 PM
NO RATINGS
@William K, I agree with just about all the comments everyone has made on this article, living in a very Red area (Orange County) of a very Blue state (California). But I check myself every time I get too far into the conservative/libertarian leanings with the observation that the U.S. government did do something right in mandating catalytic converters and unleaded gas in 1973. You don't have to go very far from here to see and smell what a difference it makes. Just cross the border into Mexicon where they still have lots of pre-1973 American cars for taxis, and you almost choke from the poor air quality.

That said, California probably did itself a disservice by going above and beyond the federal regulations. What our air would be like without the CA regulations is debatable. I totally agree that scientists and engineers should be involved in setting reasonable standards and regulations, not know-nothing bureaucrats.

A notable blunder here in California was Proposition 65, which requires notices that "chemicals known to the State of California to cause cancer, birth defects, blah, blah, blah.... are present in this establishment", passed in the '80's. So every gas station and almost every store in the state has these signs; they are so ubiquitous that nobody pays any attention to them! I guess the people that make the signs are laughing all the way to the bank!

GreenAvenger
User Rank
Iron
Re: resisting CER
GreenAvenger   9/20/2011 12:30:06 PM
NO RATINGS
I do not suggest that "Energy Star" ratings are completely "worthless" but there is still much work to be done. 

I refer you to this article as but one reference to what is wrong with what has become more of a marketing system rather than a meaningful figure of merit...

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/03/26/science/earth/26star.html

As it turns out "Energy Star" is not alone in having problems. Many energy and environmental standards groups (and "green" marking symbols) have either started out compromised or become compromised even to the point of being mere "green washing" marketing gimmicks. 

If we could truly count on any of these energy and environmental marketing symbols to mean something I would back them fully.

But as it turns out many of the enviro-ranking marks are virtually meaningless because they are often 100% voluntary, and often as not, not verified by authorative and impartial third parties.  

I believe that companies need to have meaningful energy standards forced on them by law. 

 

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