<<  <  Page 4/4
Jerry dycus
User Rank
Re: Energy Storage is the Heart of the EV
Jerry dycus   9/19/2011 8:42:13 PM

   Hi Charles and All,

              First thing I learned is car salemen lie and battery saleman are even worse.  So I go to basic econo 101 and physics.

             Since the batteries Tesla, others use cost $250kwhr in 1000 lots, that sets lithium battery material costs at under $175kw and probably under $125/kwhr.  There is nothing that expensive in good lithiums but about 18 lbs of alum, copper, iron, plastic, electrolyte and a lb of lithium carbonate, none of which are more than $6/lb.

             Packaging, temp control and BMS is about $100/kwhr but that is likely to drop as electronics gets better and production experience increases.

             Since batteries really are commoditities because so many battery companies and so few orders, battery companies will be lucky to get cost +10%.

             While car companies spend way too much calculating and just need to get some time in EV's, it's not the battery's fault nor should it be put in the EV battery's cost unless over several  yrs like other car's tooling is.  

            So this leads me to read into the lines that lithium batteries now cost OEM's about $400/kwhr in finished pack form and probably under $200/kwhr in 5 yrs if not earlier.

           Interesting both the battery cost and last week's too many battery manufacturers for a limited market were just my points here a couple articles ago. Thanks for bringing them to a brighter light.

User Rank
Re: Is all Common Sense Lost?
drdhdmd   9/19/2011 8:46:21 PM
Well I do have an eLectric DeLorean.  Right now it is using old fashion lead acid batteries because for $2000 I can accelerate really fast and maintain highway speeds.  The problem is I only get 40 miles on a charge.  I'd love to be able to afford a more exotic battery chemistry, but to have a battery pack that can put out over 1000 amps and be at least 100 ah we're talking close to $20,000.  Hopely the prices will continue to drop... electricdelorean.com

User Rank
Re: Is all Common Sense Lost?
Common.Sense.1st   9/19/2011 8:52:04 PM
Both of the battery types mentioned are indeed primary cells, however if you do a bit of web searching you will find that there are also working Al and Mg batteries that are rechargeable that function on a different premise.

As I started commenting on the third type, the Al and Mg follow along the same premise the third type took, a hybrid between a battery and a fuel cell.... with a surprisingly available "fuel"

As for the commentary concerning efficiencies by someone else, I agree there are inefficiencies but not 50% line losses as someone stated.

And in response to the 6 cent level...  Right off the answer is hydro.....  unless ofcourse the owner of the facility is getting a 6 or 7 figure paycheck (Which they are) But think about this...I'm in NY and presently pay around 6.8 cents, not counting the meter/delivery charge, while my house in TN is under 6 cents.




N. Christopher Perry
User Rank
Re: Is all Common Sense Lost?
N. Christopher Perry   1/24/2012 2:08:18 PM
@ Powa-Master:  Based on my readings the conversion efficiency of coal fired power plants is typically closer to 33%.  Also, combined cycle plants are breaking records with efficiencies reaching 50%.  How do you arrive at 8-10%?

Additionally, your arguments are based on the current state of power generation.  One point made by pluggable hybrid and electric car advocates make is; as the grid generation system gets cleaner and more efficient, the cars do the same, continuously over the life of the car.  Internal combustion cars are arguably at their cleanest and most efficient when they finish their break-in, and get 'dirtier' and less efficient from that point on.  These factors should also be figured all of these arguments.

N. Christopher Perry
User Rank
Re: Round and round
N. Christopher Perry   1/24/2012 2:29:08 PM
@ JRoque:  It's not necessarily that the cells need any special cooling requirements, it's primarily a safety system with a reliability aspect too.  It ensures that if a damaged cell overheats for any reason, it doesn't 'cook off' the nearby cells and trigger a chain reaction.  It also serves to maximize cell life by assuring cell string charge balancing: If all of the cells are within 2C of each other they will optimally share charge/discharge loads.

LiIon/LiPo Battery packs, at any scale, require extensive redundant safety systems: Over voltage, under voltage, over current, under temp, over temp, fault tolerance to cell failure, drop, crush, puncture, short circuit, etc.  All of these systems must be qualified prior to commercial use, which is a significant investment.  Take a look at UL2048 to get a sense for how a non-automotive battery has to perform and how many samples are required for qualification.  An application I'm working on will require nearly 100 samples and 6-8 months to demonstrate compliance with that standard alone.  Designing and qualifying batteries is expensive and must be accounted for in the delivered cost.

User Rank
Re: Round and round
GeoOT   10/11/2012 1:12:31 PM
TJ-  It is true that replacing the storage system in a car would mean "replacing the pack not the cells" but that (of course) includes the cells.  The rest of the pack is quite valuable. We have to believe that the rest of the pack would be recovered/recycled by replacing the cells and returning the pack to the replacement market.  This is no different than what currently exists for many repairable automotive parts (e.g. starters, generators, air conditioning compressors).  In truth, this is only a mechanism to have the repair moved from the individual shop to a centralized repair facility that has specialized tooling and tha can take advantage of the economies of scale.  So once a volume market is established the cost for replacing a pack should be (cost of a rebatteried pack) - (value of a dead pack) + swapout labor.  The first two factors should lie somewhere between the cell cost and the pack cost unless the recycle value of the cells is very high.

<<  <  Page 4/4

Partner Zone
Latest Analysis
The actor captured imaginations and inspired scientists and engineers all over the world in his role as Star Trek's Mr. Spock.
You know you're an engineer if you chuckle whenever anyone says "centrifugal force," or you find yourself at the airport studying the baggage handling equipment.
The word “smart” is becoming the dumbest word around. It has been applied to almost every device and system in our homes. In addition to smartphones and smart meters, we now hear about smart clothing and smart shoes, smart lights, smart homes, smart buildings, and every trendy city today has its smart city project. Just because it has a computer inside and is connected to the Web, does not mean it is smart.
Are you being paid enough? Do you want a better job? According to a recent survey Manpower released just before Engineers Week, employers and engineers don't see eye-to-eye about the state of US engineers' skills and experience.
On Feb. 6, UMass Amherst announced that it would no longer be accepting Iranian graduate students in STEM fields. It has since abandoned that policy.
Design News Webinar Series
2/25/2015 11:00 a.m. California / 2:00 p.m. New York
12/11/2014 8:00 a.m. California / 11:00 a.m. New York
12/10/2014 8:00 a.m. California / 11:00 a.m. New York
11/19/2014 11:00 a.m. California / 2:00 p.m. New York
Quick Poll
The Continuing Education Center offers engineers an entirely new way to get the education they need to formulate next-generation solutions.
Feb 23 - 27, Baremetal C Programming for Embedded Systems
SEMESTERS: 1  |  2  |  3  |  4  |  5  |  67

Focus on Fundamentals consists of 45-minute on-line classes that cover a host of technologies. You learn without leaving the comfort of your desk. All classes are taught by subject-matter experts and all are archived. So if you can't attend live, attend at your convenience.
Learn More   |   Login   |   Archived Classes
Twitter Feed
Design News Twitter Feed
Like Us on Facebook

Sponsored Content

Technology Marketplace

Copyright © 2015 UBM Canon, A UBM company, All rights reserved. Privacy Policy | Terms of Service