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coledhl
User Rank
Iron
Electric Cars & California pollution
coledhl   8/18/2011 10:26:16 AM
Batteries for EVs are made from rare earth elements mined in China.  That mining pollutes hundreds of thousands of acres of farmland.  How many Chinese children die of cancer every day so CA can brag about driving an electric car?  The batteries aren't even made in the USA so electric cars support job creation overseas.  Every electric car requires a power plant to generate the electricity to charge the batteries.  If CA had approved diesel cars we could have 50% diesels like in Europe & have met mileage standards years ago.  Diesel is also a cheaper fuel. I'm also still waiting for CA to pay those states east of CA for the pollution caused when they burn their forests in CA.  CA has done more damage to the environment than any other state, its hard to imagine.  But they have a different agenda & its not the environment.

coledhl
User Rank
Iron
Electric Cars & California pollution
coledhl   8/18/2011 10:25:53 AM
NO RATINGS
Batteries for EVs are made from rare earth elements mined in China.  That mining pollutes hundreds of thousands of acres of farmland.  How many Chinese children die of cancer every day so CA can brag about driving an electric car?  The batteries aren't even made in the USA so electric cars support job creation overseas.  Every electric car requires a power plant to generate the electricity to charge the batteries.  If CA had approved diesel cars we could have 50% diesels like in Europe & have met mileage standards years ago.  Diesel is also a cheaper fuel. I'm also still waiting for CA to pay those states east of CA for the pollution caused when they burn their forests in CA.  CA has done more damage to the environment than any other state, its hard to imagine.  But they have a different agenda & its not the environment.

sw555
User Rank
Iron
Re: Too Big To Fail
sw555   8/18/2011 10:24:23 AM
Yes! How's that for bucking the trend....

It makes little sense to require a company to produce what customers won't buy. In time, there will be no company and nobody wins.

CUSTOMERs buy big SUVs. Car companies didn't force them to buy. (By the way the big US SUVs are far more fuel efficient than most foreign makes.)

Come on people. This is basic supply and demand stuff. If you want to influence the purchase and use of efficient vehicles, EV's, etc., pass a tax to raise the price of gasoline or on high fuel consumption vehicles. One of the reasons car companies had trouble in 2008 is because gas prices went above $4 per gallon, people took notice, stopped buying the majority of what sold (and, therefore, the most profitable), and auto sales plunged 60%. If people only buy efficient vehicles, that's all the car companies would produce.

Comparing the past to today doesn't work either. When the first CAFE requirements came out, one could argue they were necessary. One could also argue that because the foreign companies already passed, they added a burden to USA companies and siphoned off R&D money needed to maintain competitiveness. It wasn't the US companies fault that people in this country bought big cars and Europe/Asia didn't. I won't even mention the pension costs that don't exist in the more socialized foriegn contries.

All companies build what their customers buy. If you want to influence fuel efficiency, cause people to change their purchase habits. The manufacturers will follow.

Why not call the California fine a tax for purchasing a non EV and list it as an additional fee on the window sticker? I suspect the latter is political suicide, while the former is the politically correct "stick it to those bad car companies". In the end the cost will get passed on.

 

Rocky-Ricoco
User Rank
Iron
Re: No sympathy for California Consumers
Rocky-Ricoco   8/18/2011 10:17:12 AM
NO RATINGS

The auto makers complain that any requirement that increases the cost by $10 will break the industry.  At the same time they are installing accessories resulting in thousands of dollars in costs (radios, TVs, GPS, power locks, power windows, sunroofs, mag wheels, tinted windows …). 

To date, most of the emission controls are used to control the engine, without the oxygen, MAF and other sensors the computers would not be able to control the fuel mixture.  Without these electronics we would still be using carburetors and we would be servicing the vehicles every 20,000 miles.  In reality, the cars are now maintenance free for the first 100,000 miles and the cost savings to the consumer outweighs the initial investment.  This is progress

The emission controls also have environmental benefits.  Today the CO emissions from vehicles are so low that it is almost impossible to asphyxiate yourself with auto emissions. 

Remember the removal of leaded gasoline they said it would cost too much.  Look what that has saved us.  


sparky
User Rank
Iron
No sympathy for California Consumers
sparky   8/18/2011 9:46:20 AM
A $5000 penalty for every EV not sold. I can see it now at the local dealer showroom...

"So Ms Jones, I see you need to buy a delivery van for your business. Unfortunately, those are all fossil fuel units and I'm above my quota on those. If you will pay the $5000 penalty or buy one of our new EV's in addition to the vehicle you need, I will be glad to sell the deivery van."

 

Really, I don't care how many fines the California legislature puts on the auto makers, just so all of the costs are paid by the California public. Just don't pass the silliness off to the other 49 states.

dnolek
User Rank
Iron
Sympathy
dnolek   8/18/2011 9:29:45 AM
I have no sympathy.  There are no technical reasons why the automakers cannot provide safe, quality cars within either the MPG madate or the EV mandate.  The market has not self-incented the automakers commercially to do this on their own, so it is just for it to be legislated.  

Automakers can easily decide to leave the CA market, or the North American market for that matter if they don't want to meet the challenge.  Keeping a firm stance such as this would incent the nessessary investments in R&D and engineering required to make the leap.  Many automakers ALREADY have the talent and expertise to develop these vehicles, but they dont because of the market conditions.  I see these mandates as a great way for government to advance technology without much taxpayer expense.

vandamme
User Rank
Silver
Re: Lack of sympathy
vandamme   8/18/2011 9:28:12 AM
NO RATINGS
It will do them good to bicycle to work.

Tim
User Rank
Platinum
Lack of sympathy
Tim   8/17/2011 10:20:31 PM
NO RATINGS
Government intervention is not always best, but sometimes it is necessary.  The penalties that are proposed by California may seem harsh, but at least it may force some hands in the auto industry. 

ddamato31
User Rank
Iron
Boo Who?
ddamato31   8/17/2011 2:09:37 PM
First, it is important as a society to objectively determine if this transportation soulution is "better" for our safety and environment and/or leads to the development of technology that will enable an ideal solution.  Beyong that...

Leaded paint, Leaded Gasoline, Drop Side Cribs ban, Smoke Alarms, Asbestos Floor Tiles, Cigarettes, Food Labels, Building Codes, RoHS, Seat belts, Airbags, smoking on planes or in resturants, etc.....

The government has stuck its hand in all of these areas...for what?  OUR SAFETY!

If "you" disagree with what California is doing, then please paint "your" kids room with the hightest lead content paint on earth.  Let them sleep in a drop side crib with bars spaced just right for their little heads.

Don't install fire alarms, and by all means let unqualified electrician install "your" electrical to close to your shotty leaded water pipes.  Smoke at your dinner table, and dump "your" used oil in little Tim's sandbox.  Turn off "your" air bags and don't wear "your" seat belt, and by all means let little Tim ride on Mom's lap in the front seat, while "you" text and drive.  Why? Because the sooner "you" and "your" offspring leave this planet the faster the smarter people on this planet will become the majority!

Then we can vote politicians into office that will enact reasonable changes for our safety, environment, and long-term well being!

Note: "you" and "your" is not directed at the author or fellow posters.  It is used in general.  There is a basic axiom of governance.  The best way to change behavior is through economics.  I view this as government trying to change the behavior of the auto manufacturers for our well being.

William K.
User Rank
Platinum
Sympathy for the automakers:
William K.   8/17/2011 1:33:34 PM
NO RATINGS
Beth, please do not include the automakers in the same realm as thosempirates running the banks and financial institutions. When you purchase a car, you own it, and can use it as you please, within traffic law limits.

If the state of California is really serious about reducing vehicle pollution, the veryfirst thing they must do is forbid the use or posession of automotive air conditioning, followed by ruling against remote starters that allow cars to be started and run producing 100% polution, since at that point they are not doing anything useful. The next step would be to make changes to get rid of traffic jams, which are another source of pollution, cars idling and not going any place.

The problem with California laws is that too many of them are based on emotions instead of correct information, and have very little, if any, thought given to the unanticipated results that occur later on. 

If the auto companies were able to work with each other they could all act in unison and respond to California that there would be no new cars available. Unfortunately, the auto companies are unwilling to do that, because some company would cave in, I am sure. But it would certainly be fun for those of use who used to depend on the car companies for income to see those people having to give up something in support of what they claim to believe in.

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