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Jennifer Campbell
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0 to 60
Jennifer Campbell   8/16/2011 10:12:36 AM
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Chuck, how was the pick-up on the Prius? How long did it take to go from 0 to 60?

Charles Murray
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Re: 0 to 60
Charles Murray   8/16/2011 10:47:09 AM
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Jenn: I didn't time it myself, but the time is generally assumed to be around ten seconds. The acceleration characteristics of the this vehicle aren't great, but they are no worse than the conventional Prius. The electric powertrain provides about 60 kW. But if you're accelerating full-on, then you'll need about 120 to 150 kW, so the Prius Hybrid Synergy Drive has to kick in to make up the difference.

Rob Spiegel
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Re: 0 to 60
Rob Spiegel   8/16/2011 11:48:32 AM
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Hey Chuck, one thing I've wondered about with these batteries is whether there is deterioration over time. After months or years of recharging, will they lose the 13-mile reach? I would think the battery would become less powerful after countless recharges. How do these vehicles hold up in general over the long haul?

mr88cet
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Silver
Re: 0 to 60
mr88cet   8/17/2011 10:03:50 AM
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A few months ago, I read a very-interesting book called "Electric Vehicle Technology Explained" - a very good wrap-up (although slightly out-of-date) of EV technology.  Probably about a third of the book was about various battery technologies. 

Short summary, battery deterioration over time can comes, mainly, from two sources:  heat and overcharging, both of which can cause electro-chemical degrade over time.  I'm pessimistic about Nissan's claim that the Leaf's battery doesn't need any form of cooling system.  Chevy and Tesla seem to be convinced that very considerable cooling systems are critical.  The fact that Nissan designed its battery in modules makes me wonder if they anticipate a need for it to be replaced over time, and tried to reduce the impact by allowing you to replace only portions of it.  I don't know, but I just have to wonder...

For whatever it's worth, my 2009 Prius' NiMH has a very-definite, but simple, cooling system - just convection cooling.  Existing-Prius batteries have a long history of not showing very much degrade over time.  This new one, however, uses an all-new chemistry, and presumably a different architecture, which could affect the effects of overcharging, a certain amount of which is unavoidable (unless you put the cells of the batteries purely in parallel, which is not realistic).

My personal guess would be that it won't degrade much over time, but I don't have any really specific information to base that guess upon.

Charles Murray
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Re: 0 to 60
Charles Murray   8/17/2011 2:05:45 PM
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Rob: Battery deterioration is a slippery subject. It depends on age, mileage and repeated deep cycling of the battery. The advantage of this battery, however, is that it should be less costly replace than, say, a Volt or Leaf battery, because it's significantly smaller.

Rob Spiegel
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Re: 0 to 60
Rob Spiegel   8/17/2011 2:32:29 PM
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Thanks Chuck. Has the electric vehicle (EV) world matured enough for consumers to take battery replacement into account as part of the price of owning an EV? With traditional vehicles, consumers have a pretty good idea how often they will have to replace various part of the car. And they have a pretty good idea of the relative cost of that maintenance. Has battery replacement become part of the consciousness of the EV owner?

mr88cet
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Silver
Re: 0 to 60
mr88cet   8/17/2011 2:37:38 PM
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I think that full-production EVs are still new enough that a mentality related to battery replacement has not yet to emerge.  However, I think the expectation is that you simply won't need to replace traction batteries for a normal expected lifetime of the vehicle - say, 150Kmiles.  As for whether it will really happen that way ... I guess we'll see.

Charles Murray
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Re: 0 to 60
Charles Murray   8/17/2011 2:59:24 PM
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Rob: Automakers are definitely considering battery replacement, and are trying to make it part of the buying decision. GM offers an eight-year, 100,000-mile warranty on the Volt's battery. The fact that they did so indicates consumers are asking about it. However, my guess is that most consumers aren't asking about it until it comes time to plunk down the money. Nissan actually interviews prospective buyers of the Leaf to make sure they understand the issues associated with the performance and care of an electric car.

mr88cet
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Silver
Re: 0 to 60
mr88cet   8/18/2011 10:07:07 AM
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Having a battery warranted for 8 years or 100Kmiles doesn't necessarily mean that either OEMs or their customers actually expect it to fail after that period.

Statistically, Prius batteries are warranted similarly, but go much longer than that.  Can't be certain with Li-Ion instead of NiMH, but I guess we'll see...

Beth Stackpole
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Blogger
New or existing Prius owners?
Beth Stackpole   8/16/2011 12:07:30 PM
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Looks pretty cool, Chuck. Question for you: My dad owns the original Prius. Any sense of whether this new offering would compel an existing Prius owner like him to want to trade up to the new model or whether this is more a play for attracting new Prius converts?

Charles Murray
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Re: New or existing Prius owners?
Charles Murray   8/17/2011 1:56:27 PM
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Beth: This vehicle is truly different than its predecessor because it enables certain drivers, especially those who make a lot of short trips, to run in pure electric mode for a high percentage of the time. Theoretically, it's possible that your father wouldn't have to add gasoline for weeks or even months, depending on how diligent he is about recharging. That said, it's not for everyone. People who have a longer drive to work -- for example, 15 or 20 miles each way -- would probably be better served by the old Prius powertrain architecture.

mr88cet
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Silver
EV, PHEV, EREV
mr88cet   8/17/2011 10:23:11 AM
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When I first heard Chevy say, "the Volt is not any kind of hybrid, it's an EREV [extended-range electric vehicle]," I rolled my eyes back into my head.  "Don't give me all that marketing hype;  it's simply a series hybrid with a big battery."

However, as I read more about the Volt, the Leaf, and the plug-in Prius, I'm starting to accept that it really isn't strictly marketing fluff.  The lifestyle differences for these vehicles really is very significant.  It's clear to me that the plug-in Prius is still fundamentally a hybrid:  A car with multiple, heterogeneous power sources, with a computer system that attempts to find the optimal balance between those sources.  In short, it's a vehicle whose goal is to harvest the best aspects of each power source.  The only big difference is that they beefed up the battery and made it externally rechargeable. 

Although the volt is in fact a (series) hybrid, clearly it's design goals are totally different:  To give you a limited range of pure-electric driving, with a gasoline backup.  The Leaf, obviously, is intended for a less-limited range, but with no backup.  The plug-in Prius does not appear to be intended to function for any significant period of time completely free of gasoline, so it is still truly a hybrid vehicle.

By the way, Mr. Murray, I doubt if the "99.9"MPG number you saw was a true reflection of the mileage you were getting.  Priuses have always had mileage displays, instantaneous and cumulative, that "peg out" (saturate) at 99.9MPG.  In other words, you were actually getting over 99.9MPG, with no indication of how much more.

Question:  Does this Prius insist upon buring gas just simply to warm up the engine after you fire it up?  Yes, yes, I understand why they do this:  The Prius' power-split-device-based drive system means that the engine turns over most of the time that you're not a complete stop, even if it doesn't get fuel or spark.  So they decided that you have to warm up the oil or the engine will suffer excessive wear and cause drag.  In this particular case, however, where the real benefit is that short trips (and I for one make a lot of very-short trips to the grocery store and such) use hardly any gas at all.  If they do insist on warming up the engine, it would pretty nearly negate any benefit, it would seem.

Charles Murray
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Blogger
Re: EV, PHEV, EREV
Charles Murray   8/17/2011 1:58:35 PM
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To mr88cet: Thanks for the heads-up on the 99.9 mpg reading. I suspected as much, since the number repeatedly came back up on short drives.

mr88cet
User Rank
Silver
Re: EV, PHEV, EREV
mr88cet   8/17/2011 2:39:15 PM
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So, does the plug-in Prius warm up the engine when you fire it up?

tucsonics
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Silver
Air Conditioning
tucsonics   8/18/2011 4:44:20 AM
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Is the 13 mile range with or without the air conditioner on?

I owned the 2002 Prius and with the A/C on, the engine never turned off. MPG was reduced by 2-4 with A/C on. Here in Tucson AZ we need A/C at least half a year.

mr88cet
User Rank
Silver
Re: Air Conditioning
mr88cet   8/18/2011 10:02:42 AM
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Air conditioning certainly does take a bit out of my 2009 Prius' mileage, but thankfully not to the point of keeping the engine running all the time.  Then again, here in Austin, it's only 100 degrees at 9:30PM!  :-)

Charles Murray
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Blogger
Re: Air Conditioning
Charles Murray   8/18/2011 12:00:07 PM
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To tucsonics: In answer to your question about air conditioining, the 13-mile range that I got was with the AC off. I can only assume that would drop by a mile or two if the AC was turned on.  

tucsonics
User Rank
Silver
Re: Air Conditioning
tucsonics   8/18/2011 12:14:36 PM
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As distances here are expanded compared to other parts of the country, <13 miles doesn't get us very far. I didn't mention in my post that I sold the Prius 2002 because it had no trunk. My needs changed, so I bought a used 2002 Aerio SX (Suzuki) hatchback (in 2004) that has good carrying capacity. Put $7k in the bank. It gets a measured 29-30 mpg, losing 1 mpg when the A/C is on.

mr88cet
User Rank
Silver
Re: Air Conditioning
mr88cet   8/18/2011 2:18:21 PM
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13 miles certainly doesn't get you very far, yes.  And even during those 13 miles the engine isn't completely off all the time. 

However, if you tend to make a lot of short trips at low speed, the engine would be off almost all of that time.  Short trips are very desirable to target, however, because tend to really drop your mileage.  That, since gasoline engines run especially inefficiently at low speeds, or at idle.  Or before/while warming up.

On a somewhat-related note, I've seen discussions of the Volt of the nature of, "I wouldn't buy this thing because, I can't fit my 50-mile commute into the nominal 40 mile pure-electric range of the car."  Well, OK, but isn't burning 10 miles of gas a big improvement over burning 50 miles worth of gas?

Rick DeMeis
User Rank
Silver
Driving a Prius Plug-In for a week
Rick DeMeis   9/14/2011 10:10:59 AM
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We had the Prius Plug-In Hybrid for a week of testing at the Design News sister site Automotive Designline. Click here for our report on living with a plug-in.



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